So you say you don't know whether to storage your mexes or to upgrade them? Just go down this list until you find something you can do. The earlier it appears on the list, the more efficient it is.

1. Build T1 mexes on an empty mex spot
2. If you have a lot of extra mass available, ctrl+K a T1 mex and build a T3 mex+storage on an empty mex spot
3. Upgrade any T1 mexes to T2
4. Upgrade any storaged T2 mexes to T3
5. Build T2 fabs around any T3 power plants
6. Storage any T2 mexes
7. Build T3 fabricators only once you have exhausted all your other options or you absolutely need unit cap and can't afford T2 fabricators.



For the raw numbers, read on. This gives the efficiency of each building in terms of how much mass it costs for each +1mass/second it gives. i.e. a T1 mex costs 36 mass, but gives you +2 mass per second. That means it costs 18 mass for +1 mass/second.

================Building mexes=====================

Building a T1 mex = 18 mass for +1mass/second

Building a T2 mex = 150 mass for +1mass/second

Building a T3 mex = 255.5 mass for +1mass/second

Building a T3 mex + storage = 200 mass for +1mass/second.

==============Upgrading and Storaging Mexes============

Upgrading a T1 mex to T2 = 225 mass for +1 mass/second

Storaging a T2 mex = 266.7 mass for +1 mass/second

Upgrading a Storaged T2 mex to T3 = 255 mass for +1 mass/second

Upgrading an unstoraged T2 mex to T3 = 383.3 mass for +1mass/second

Storaging a T3 mex = 88.9 mass for +1mass/second.

==============Building fab farms=====================

Building T2 fabs + T1 power diagonally with the fabs adjacent to four T1 power plants = 521.875 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T2 power with no adjacency = 460 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T2 power with the fabs adjacent to one T2 power plant = 415 mass for +1mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T2 power with the fabs adjacent to two T2 power plant = 370 mass for +1mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T3 power with no adjacency = 294 mass for +1mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to one T3 power plant = 257.95 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T2 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to two T3 power plant = 221.5 mass for +1mass/second

Building T3 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to one T3 power plant = 557 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T3 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to two T3 power plants = 486.25 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T3 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to one T3 power plant and surrounded by mass storage on the other sides = 477.9 mass for +1 mass/second

Building T3 fabs + T3 power with the fabs adjacent to 2 T3 power plants and surrounded by mass storage on the other sides = 469 mass for +1 mass/second


=========ACU/SCU RAS===========

Since RAS gives mass and energy, for ease of comparison I'm showing how mass-efficient it would be if you were to get the RAS upgrade AND build enough non-adjacent T2 fabricators to use up all the energy generated.

Building Aeon SCUs plus RAS plus T2 fabs = 694.12 mass for +1 mass/second
Building UEF SCUs plus RAS plus T2 fabs = 793.75 mass for +1 mass/second
Building Cybran SCUs plus RAS plus T2 fabs = 756.25 mass for +1 mass/second

Upgrading an existing Aeon SCU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 182.35 mass for +1 mass/second
Upgrading an existing UEF SCU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 193.75 mass for +1 mass/second
Upgrading an existing Cybran SCU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 193.75 mass for +1 mass/second

Upgrading an Aeon ACU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 188.89 mass for +1 mass/second
Upgrading a UEF ACU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 200 mass for +1 mass/second
Upgrading a Cybran ACU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 207.6 mass for +1 mass/second
Upgrading a Seraphim ACU with RAS plus T2 fabs = 194.44 mass for +1 mass/second

=========Building Power Plants and Energy Storage===========

T1 power plants = 3.75 mass for +1 energy/second
T2 power plants = 2.4 mass for +1 energy/second
T3 power plants = 1.296 mass for +1 energy/second
Hydrocarbon plant = 1.6 mass for +1 energy/second

Energy storage with the storage adjacent to one T2 plant = 5.76 mass for +1 energy/second

Energy storage with the storage adjacent to two T2 plants = 2.88 mass for +1 energy/second

Energy storage with the storage adjacent to one T3 plant = 1.536 mass for +1 energy/second

Energy storage with the storage adjacent to two T3 plants = 0.768 mass for +1 energy/second



Phew! I've tried to make sure everything is accurate, but if you find any mistakes please point them out!

lawl

So the new resource plan is...


...built in square grids to needed size?

I don't think the T1 power plants are worth it. They'll lower the overall efficiency. Even if you count the energy saved from them being adjacent to two T2 massfabs, their overall efficiency comes out to 1.935 mass for each +1 energy/second, which is less efficient than the T3 power plants. Other than that, yes. In fact, the more you expand the grid, the more efficient it gets.

So this one would be even more efficient than the first, although I don't think it's efficient enough to justify the danger of chain reactions. So overall, the first one minus the T1 power plants is the most efficient you can get.

EDIT: Oh ya, can anyone tell me if RAS is added on top of the SCUs' existing resource generation, or if it replaces the current resource generation? i.e. do cybran SCUs generate +10 mass/second after RAS, or +12mass/second?

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Though would T1Storage work instead of T1Power? Eh, probably not...

And as for chain reactions, that entirely depends on the amount of shielding you're willing to put in... (yes, less viable in MP than campaign, but still)

Umm, why would you CTRL-K your mexes if you can upgrade them (and keep the mass income while they do?) T1 Mexes are too efficient not to do that.

Reclaiming T2 Mexes before the upgrade is viable if and only if you are performing the rebuild with something that takes less than ~2 minutes to do it, without ever stalling.

T3 Fabricators have one huge advantage - they do not eat as much unit cap.

I'm talking about if you have a T1 mex, and want to build a T3 mex flat-out in order to skip the T2 upgrade. I specifically mention to only do it if you have a lot of extra mass available. (i.e. you can build the mex quickly)


Good to know, although I never mentioned reclaiming T2 mexes in the OP


All right I'll say they should only be used as a last resort.

you left out the Paragon ^.^

Paragon = 25.02 mass for +1 mass/second
Paragon = 0.01 mass for +1 energy/second

So then no one should ever build anything but T1 mexes and paragons lawl

Sorry, but it is much faster to assist that mex to upgrade, then build from scratch...see my post on the subject. You'll get more mass income faster by upgrading then rebuilding..everytime

Incorrect. Oh where should I start with this one. It's pretty clear that you don't understand what you were experimenting with. First off, your results absolutely do NOT apply "every time". They only apply in situations in which available build power is relatively low, and is the limiting factor on whether a building gets built. The more build power that is available, the less significant build order becomes. i.e. if you can build a T3 mex in one second, it's not going to matter what order you build anything in, and it's going to be more efficient to build the T3 mex alone than upgrading a T1 mex to T3 because you didn't spend any mass on a T2 mex.

And as I pointed out in your thread, you assisted the upgrading mex with a T3 engineer, which ruins your results. Of course assisting an upgrading mex with an engineer is going to be faster than just building the mex with the engineer alone. You have more build power when you assist the mex. If you want valid results, then do what I said in your thread and let a hive do all the building so that build power remains constant throughout the experiment.

So the whole economy system is different now?

I was wondering why the AI was building storages...and wondering how can I get out of the continual mass deficit. I'll give this a go tonight. Thanks!

The economy is pretty much the same with the exceptions that
#1. T3 mexes cost more and generate more mass.
#2. fabs are less efficient than mexes instead of more efficient.

SO how does this change the need (or lack thereof) of making storages? I thought from PAX's economy guide that storage in vanilla was a waste of resources...

That's probably because storage only gets really efficient for T3 mexes, but in vanilla, fabs were better in every way than T3 mexes.

This list is purely theoretical and does only take buildcost and output into account. I understand why you wrote it, but it's dangerous to think that this is the way to play. I'm not saying you are wrong, i'm just warning people from following this in an actual game. This is because there are more to the game than these two factors. You missed the most important one, risk. There are two kinds of risks: Risk of losing the building, and risk of getting hit by building it (when you stall your economy or put too little resources into defense).

I would never dream of upgrading a storaged T2 mex to T3 (or even ctrl+k a T1 mex) before all my T1 mexes (that i can protect) are upgraded to T2. The cost is too high, and you stall your economy, which results in your unitproduction getting severly hindered. If you are gonna do this then you better make sure your opponents are asleep.

In fact, even upgrading a T1 mex to T2 is hard to decide. "Shall i build another factory, or upgrade this mex? Can i hold him off until this is upgraded? Will he raid a lot of my outlying T1 mexes, which gives me a negative result after upgrading this mex?"

Something else about risk with mexes is usually to spread out the gain to minimize the damage from sneakattacks. If you have 5 T1 and 1 storaged T3, i will kill your T3 and you'll be dead. If you have 2 T1 and 4 T2, instead, you wont be dead if i kill one T2. This is ofcourse based on how easy they are to defend.

Also, building a lot of T3 power + T2 fabs is very dangerous because these are usually prime targets for sneakattacks. They are hard to defend because T2 fabs are very easy to kill, and T3 power takes a lot of space under your shields. Both of these will do heavy damage and cause chainreactions when killed. If a chainreaction is to take place, you lose a lot more than just that T3 power. Upgrading a mexes to T2 then T3 instead, is much safer. When a mex is killed, nothing else dies and you also get the wreckage which you sometimes don't get for fabs or pgens.

My list (which takes into account that there are opponents)

1. On empty spot, build T1 mex early game, T2 or T3 mex late game (depending on risk of losing it).
1. Reclaim stuff
2. Upgrade T1 mex to T2 mex (if not too far away)
3. Storage T2 mex
4. Upgrade storaged T2 mex to T3
5. Build T3 power + T2 fabs
6. Build T3 power + T3 fabs

Also, i usually upgrade RAS on my ACU when i have 3 or 4 T2 power, because it's really efficient. I have no idea of numbers, but it's fast to get and not as dangerous as a T3 powerplant.

Sigh... perhaps I didn't write it clear enough. If you follow my list, you can't get a storaged T2 mex in the first place unless you've already upgraded all your T1 mexes. That's why storaging a T2 mex is placed down at the bottom of the list.


A chain reaction of T2 fabs will not destroy a T3 power plant.


I apologize if I misrepresented this thread as containing information outside the context of economy. There is also a problem with your list. It is more efficient to upgrade a storaged T2 mex to T3, than to storage a T2 mex. Your list does not express this.

Just an FYI, and you might want to mention this, Although the T.2 Fabs surrounding the T.3 Pgens may be really explosive, it gives plenty o' mass, and the T.3 massfab gives less mass, and is just as chain reactive.


Make sure to drive the point home, tech up MEXs instead of FAB farming.

Tell the Techniques on how to safely fly around and protect your outlying MEXs

How much energy should I put aside for Fabs?

I personally would put away about half, every mass counts


When should I assist MEXes for upgrades? How much?

I don't upgrade more than 1 MEX before upgrading my ACU, and then I build a T.2 power and upgrade the other 3, but I'm still working on a better way.

Which MEXs should I upgrade first? Should I upgrade the far away ones if I have too much mass?

Probably, no. His strat bombers, destroyers, Novaks, Ahwassas, Fighter bombers, ect will annihilate those outer T.3 MEXs.

How do I spend Excess mass?

Tech up factories and build more of them too. Build more scouts and build more energy. Put more build power on upgrades and MEXs. Make exps.

How do I protect my economy?

Shields and some SAMs, ASFs and shields. Fighter bombers and Shields. Armies and Shields. PD and shields. Getting it?

But don't over do it.

Is that good?

Also, RAS adds on. Aeon and Sera ACUs can get + 5k energy and +18 m,***, and then get it again, the 3 norm factions can get RAS to get an additional +600 energy and + 6 mass. and the Sera SCU comes out of the box with +5 mass +500 energy, but no RAS.


Yxatlis or whatever his name is has proven that you should upgrade your MEXs and put storage around them at T.2.



Where the hell is Pax when you need him -_-'

bullcrap. learn2scientificmethod

1: Ziv, you're right, also Usling, putting lots of build power into it will get it over in under 3 minutes I think, and then you get, what, + 36 mass from those for a bit? Better than +8.





2: It'll half kill it, you get gunships to kill the Fabs and the Fighter bombers/ strat bombers to finish off the Pgen.




3: Lawlz, you didn't.

Build order only really matters if you're spending a long time upgrading your mexes. The faster you upgrade them, the less significant build order is. Also, the faster you can build them, the better of an idea it is to ctrl+k a T1 mex and build a T3 on top of it.


If your base is that vulnerable, then there's not much you can do in the first place.

1: Yeah, but when you're trying to get early tech ups, you want a LOT of assisting engees


2: you'd be suprised at what 15 Fighter bombers and 5 Gunships can do.

If i follow your list, then it's best to storage one T2, then upgrade it to T3. Then storage the next T2, and upgrade it, and so on. This is failure and i will explain it again:


It's smarter to storage most of your T2 mexes before upgrading to T3, because you reduce the risk of stalling. The lesser income you have, the longer it takes to upgrade it to T3. And the longer it takes, the more time do your enemy have to attack you.

What i mean is, that you are right concerning buildcost and output efficiency, but building storage is not as heavy on your eco as upgrading a mex to T3. So if you storage your most of your T2 mexes before upgrading the first one to T3, then you have maximized your income and reduced the time it takes to upgrade it to T3. You will need the storages anyway.


No, but they will destroy each other, aswell as shields or engineers or other stuff that is close, which is dangerous and you have to take that into account when building them. Also, they have very low HP which makes even the most simple sneakattack successful.



I have already explained why this is not a problem and instead a wise choice.

Usling


1: My views exactly, and precisely what I do.


2: Pretty much the point, but with sufficient air you can get rid of the Pgens too.