Its actually quite simple.

The problem is and this has been stated many times, is lack of diversity and utility. AZ I think was the first one to say this, but basically it comes down to this - T1 bot < T2 Tank < T3 Bot < SCU < Spiderbot < GC, etc etc.

Everything in the game basically comes down to this, has X amount of HP and Y amount of DPS. There are small factors to consider but they hardly impact the outcome of it all. There is another thing to mention, it is SPEED, which is not important as X Hp and Y DPS but does play a role as well.

To illustrate this abstract theory, let me show you an example. In Starcraft, marines are the staple of your terran forces. They are your T1 bots. However, unlike your T1 bots, they are build throughout the game. Even till the last minute when enemies might have ultralisks(basically think T3 bots). They have special utilities and support units for them to even the odds. Stim pack for them to gain greater movement/attack speed, medics to heal them. This way they can still play a role late into the game and not just be weaker units taking up space of what instead should be stronger units taking up space and doing more damage and tanking more damage.

In supcom, you don't build T1 bots beyond a certain point ever again. Once T2 is reached, you basically don't ever need to build another T1 attack unit ever. If you are cybran, once you reach T3, you never need to build another attack unit lower than a T3 bot. IF you do build weaker units, you are wasting valuable "room" for stronger units to stand and do damage and tank damage to and from your enemy.

Because of the fact that most units in Supcom lack utility, they become useless once a unit that has higher X for hp and Y for dps comes out on the battlefield. If you notice, late games become stagnated with experimentals and only a few other units, not much else. This is because there is no reason to build weaker units anymore, when you have GC defending your base, there is no reason for your opponent to make T3 bots anymore.

There are some "neat" features and things like that, but when it comes down to it, it neither "doesn't do enough" or "too late for it to matter".

Doesn't do enough would be for example cybran t1 artillery having the ability to stun. There is a reason why no one EVER makes this unit.

Too late for it to matter would be things like the microwave laser upgrade on the cybran ACU. Once you have that kind of resource to do that kind of upgrade, you really shouldn't be using your acu offensively in that it will die way too easily. Other things include the ability to build units from a fatboy. IF you have a fatboy and is using it to push forward and establish a front line base, that would imply you are within range of enemy base and artillery. The build speed of new engs from a fatboy would not be sufficient enough to provide you with enough engs to fast build shields/T3 AA/T2 artillery, so basically it CANNOT support you in building a forward base. Say you are pushing with a fatboy, your enemy has the advantage of building stuff right in his base and given that he has the same economy as you, he will fast build strat bombers/t2 artillery/etc to kill your fatboy before you can get any reasonable amount of engs up. Not to mention nowadays, his scouts would have seen that **** from a mile away. Remember what I mentioned about speed earlier? GCs/Fatboys simply do not move fast enough, your enemy will see you come from a mile away. In a map like Isis, it is safe to say that by the time you get to the other side with your GC, he will have made 30 strat bombers and 20 t2 artilleries. I am not saying buff them, that is for another thread but to point out how speed factors into this.

Now in this mix of units that mostly just do nothing but do damage and take damage, you throw in something that has an ability to suicide for 3k damage and that flies at an godly speed. Of course things are going to be skewed to say the least.

If you think about it, your T4 soul ripper can be taken down by mass amounts of anti air/gunships. In starcraft however, it can be taken down by a few anti air units with 1 ghost that locks down(stuns) the battleship. Now through, it can be taken down by a couple guided missiles, that is probably imba in that it does the same damage to air and ground units/buildings.

Note that the difference is - to win in supcom basically means to spam more of a unit that has more hp and damage - an economy game in essense. To win in starcraft means to not always rely on pure numbers but tactics/micro/skill and using units from all tech levels. Not to say you can't win by being far behind in economy, there is much more utility among units instead of doing the standard of building stronger units with X hp doing Y damage.

Now if you suddenly throw in a unit that can suicide for 3k and the one unit that means victory or defeat only having 10-12k. There might be problems. It is encouraging to see GPG implementing unique units and units that do more than just have X amount of hp and do Y amount of damage. It is good to see them throw some racial diversity and identity toward these new units(the aeon one basically). However what they didn't consider is, the effects of a unit of such vastly different utility versus everything else in the game. You can't just throw a 3k suicide unit in a game where most units just do damage and have hp. You either need to do a lot of revamping of balance OR not put in a unit that has such a special utility.

So that brings me back to the first point. I don't think it is possible to build a game that is based on economy and spamming units of greater and greater hp/damage and then suddenly throw in a curve ball like this and expect it to just "work out".

If you are disappointed that only 3 units came and only 1 does something special, maybe you should be but at the same time throwing something unique and has a really special utility like the aeon missile into this kind of game is imo insane to balance.

Now on the flip side, basically the cybran bomber, you are better off with a T2 gunship, the UEF T2 bomber might be not bad, but more towards clumped/non-moving/low hp targets than towards anything else. So in the end it comes down to, you are left with 2 new bomber units that do damage, 1 of them does a more spread out aoe than your typical t2 gunship while the other is just like any other unit in the game. What does this mean? Basically, another unit that does X amount of damage and has Y amount of HP. A little harder to kill, hits a little harder but not much different from your t1 bomber. Is this a bad thing? I don't know, depends who you ask. Something new is better than nothing right? But it really doesn't add much to the game does it?

PS dont lock, thx.

Excellent post. True, every word.

Spot on.

Nothing more to add.

roffle, I just hope this doesn't turn into an omg unconq flamewar.

I feel the same way. Tech 1 bots need to be diversified definitely and so do tech 1 tanks. They need something other thn different dps,health and range.

i agree
only thing is gunships also do the same amount of damage to air and ground units, i think gpg should make air units have the same hp as ground units relatively

Wow. You are a lot more talkative than you are in game chat. I think the problem with the mercy is that it costs a LOT more to defend against than it does to construct. This game is an economy game : except, there's no counter to the mercy at early tech 2 except for putting t2 mobile flak at a distance around everything important. An Aeon player can cause his opponent to waste all those resource simply by making a t2 air plant and occasionally sending a mercy in.


Every other weapon in the game has a counter that is usually cheaper than the weapon itself.

I propose that the mercy be made a tech 3 unit. That big boost in cost to upgrade to tech 3 means that an opponent has more time to build a defense.

Furthermore, TMD should be able to shoot at it. TMD is one of the few things that reacts quick enough to really counter these things.

I find myself nodding as I read this post. For those of you who went tl;dr, let me assure you this: he's right. The Starcrap analogies are quite true. The simple fact is that the units like the Mercy are interesting, but all in all entirely misplaced. If it were several times weaker or cheaper, however...this would not be the case.

I definitely see and understand your point. I suppose my main question is this:

This game focuses a lot on "the big picture", as if that needs to be stated again. Given that, I approve of the general idea of not having units have special abilities as they do in starcraft or warcraft. Do you think there is a way to have all techs useful throughout the game without resorting to "spellcaster" units?

yea i liked the star craft analogies.

Unless you teleport in and assassinate the enemy commander as you did in a replay a few weeks ago. That made me smile.

Regardless, I think you are right about this. It seems a less-micro intensive RTS is a difficult thing to create.

Hear hear!

Shouted this for a long time, all of SupCom's balance problems are caused by the fact that there is no diversity.

Unconq is...right? ;D

He really is, the game is so deed set in the T1<T2<T3 system that something like the Mercy does more harm than good.

I feel that the Mercy is a step in the right direction, but was a bit more of a mis-step, with balancing it could not me imba, but right now, it is.

Mike

Damn straight.

I don't agree on the cybran t2 bomber, cause it starts firing out of flak range, and it would take a renegade 13 seconds to do the same amount of damage. So, renegades are better when there is no aa maybe, but t2 bombers are clearly better when there is aa. I have tested this in the sandbox, my tests seem to support this.

This does not mean that the suicide units is not heaps better though, as most bombers can expect to make only 1 pass over an enemy base defore they die anyways.

what's wrong eith an economy game ?
i prefer the way it is right now, scrap the kamikaze missile.

starcraft was an awful game, supcom is a very good game.

those who prefer the starcraft gameplay, please don't whine until you ruin another game, thank you.

I am immune to flames, turn up the heat.



IF you make it not cost effective, 2 things will happen.

1. It wont be used at all early-mid game
2. It will be used to purely snipe late game ACUs

Not really a solution at all. Also note that if you nerf soemthing that is T2 and meant to be used in T2 mid game, what is the poitn of it being T2?

Or say you do nerf it enough and it is easy to defend against with flak and what not, then whats the point of it being in the game? It becomes obselete like the T1 bot does after 10 minutes.

Problem is like I said, not the actual unit - Mercy but the game itself, the lack of utility and diversity among the units. For example say we implement a new unit that can slow all air movement within a certain area to a crawl, maybe that will help? It will certainly stop air rushes, but then again it will become imba for stopping many air rushes in effect gimping all of air..? However what if we put in another air unit that directly counters this but not much else? That might work..?

You see, the point is that you can't just throw in something such a specialized funciton and utility and expect it to be balanced among hundreds of units that just do nothing but fire and tank. To make this work would be to revamp and rebalance the whole game.



Max efficiency and effectiveness is different from fun, lets get that straight right now. I can mass 1000 t1 bots and rush the enemy base for fun and it might actually work and I will win. However, this is not effective nor is it efficient if I am playing someone of equal skill and trying to win. To be effective, you have to make stronger units with more hp and damage and build more of them than your enemy. That's what it comes down to.

The scale of this game is much larger than other RTS so a GC for example would be pretty damn hard to balance against say T1 bots without using A LOT of utility and specialized function/support units. So no I dont believe that it is possible to balance a competitive RTS without using spellcasters and if you refuse to use casters in a game of this scale, it becomes an example of "make bigger and stronger units" theory.



That was for fun, Loui was not playing serious after a certain point because as you know, it gets quite boring on isis late game. The options are limited, visilbity of the map is complete, you know what you are doing, you know what your enemy is doing, etc. So I just tele-sniped him for fun, if he paid attention he would have easily saw it as well and just moved his ACU around.



Like I said, this is basically one of those "slightly better but doesn't really matter" features. Once you get t3 air up, it becomes obselete like t2 gunships.

It would be nice if some of us can get our heads out of our own asses and actually try to read, understand and comprehended what is being said.

Blind ignorance towards anything has never led to any good out of it. Changes are what drives everything in life and space, I would hate to be a rock in the solar system instead of being me here telling you why you are bad and wrong.

You are bad and wrong.

Also, while i agree with your t1<t2<t3<t4 analogy, it seems impossible to fix this in a game of this scale and exponential magnitudes of power. In games like starcraft, marines were still useful because end game units did not have 1000 times as many hitpoints as those at the beginning of the game.

I don't think this is specifically a problem as much because there is always air and sea to mix things up, and hopefully with FA diversity will increase
----------

The mercy is a problem though, mostly because it is too cheap for what it does, cause its much more effective than similar units like bombers who would at most get 2 passes over your base.

By crashing, the mercy gets the equivalent of about 6 t2 bomber passes for cost over your base, which is simply too good. While it has little hp, its not possible for interceptors to stop all of them, especially on smaller maps, cause they move so fast.

Lol, the trademark, "You are bad and wrong."

Starcraft was one of the best rtses of all time and superbly balanced. But I don't about Starcraft II.

Totally agree with this post. I think this game needs to be totally rebalanced to make all tech levels useful in some way as well as the ACU upgrades. However, I feel like CT & gang went the TA route with 1000 of units but only a few that everyone uses.

A game that has no faction diversity is harder to balance than one with lots of diversity. When everything is the same, any difference automatically means something is better.

You can say things like "Aeon have the worst gunships but the best T3 bombers, so it's ok."

This is false reasoning. Aeon may as well not have gunships at all. Likewise, UEF may as well not have strat bombers at all (broadswords accomplish the same task).

In a game with hard counters, or even counters that arise out of intrinsic properties like movement speed and overkill ratio, it's easier to balance. You can safely adjust a unit knowing you will only impact a few select other units. If you adjust a unit in Supreme Commander you either make it too strong and invalidate every other unit, or you make it too weak and it becomes useless. Every unit plays the same role .

Throwing 200 units at each faction is a great way to go about things. The problem is we don't have 200 units for each faction. We have 40 buildings and 40 units, and maybe 8 units anyone bothers building. SupCom is a game that needs more. Adding a single unit to each faction that does the same role once every 6 months isn't going to cut it.

To hell with Seraphim. To hell with templated buildings. To hell with new graphics. To hell with performance. Just spam us units. Charge us $5 for 15 if you want to. This will give far more to the game than most other things you could do.

I find myself agreeing with Unconquerable.............hmmm..........

Hmmm........

Very good post. I especially liked the part where you mentioned the fact that other games (i.e. Starcraft) allow for lower tier counters of higher tier units (such as T1 marines countering T2 mutalisks). I think that this exists to some extent in SupCom, but not to the degree that it should in order to create a more dynamic unit balance.

But this is a fundamental problem that was designed into the game, and it would be unlikely to have the radical changes that it desperately needs.

Inclined to agree; it'd be nice to see mixed unit battles, but it isn't possible currently. Lower tier units have no real advantages, whereas they could have advantages in useful areas like speed / unique abilities (like the UEF Frigate having radar jamming) thus making them useful, even if they aren't in the straight out fight.