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 PostPosted: 21 May, 2007 
 

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I love SupCom
and i will still play it.

but yes not many people are like me, I bought a brand new PC and yes with Vista!!! big reason ( Supreme Commander ) it runs so nice!! :)

i got a Nvidia 8800 GTX because of the game!

GPG kind of promised us with a DX10 Version of SupCom, doing it like a patch, same as Company of Heroes, that i play too

now that i heard they won't release it. thats sucks so much
i was waiting for that DX10 patch!!

i understand that they won't integrate DX10 now because its too late but why not with the Expansion?
thats so stupid!!! i am so disappointed and so mad!!

if the developers read this forum i will hope that they will try to get out a DX10 Version of the game.
i want DX10 to be integrated in the next SupCom Expansion!!!

So now GPG cannot say that they didn't had the time to release DX10 and, make us happier!

THX


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 PostPosted: 21 May, 2007 
 
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First off, I have Vista and an 8800.

I have no sympathy for people that take what a developer says, that they want to put into a game, as some kind of "promise" or gospel. Learn what game development is like, and know it is all vaporware till it ships. It's all plans and hopes, not promises. People need to understand that developing DX10 isn't just clicking a check box, it's rewriting a rendering engine and likely developing new content, ALOT of work for it to be worth it for us or them.

I have very little sympathy for those that bought hardware for DX10, especially for this game, from some promise from Microsoft and Nvidia that DX10 is something super special and that GPG wanted to implement it. It's not as special as those who have your money would make it out to be. All of you that think so, are mistaken. I don't care how many articles you quote me, I've read them. If don't care what performance benefits you mention on the API, or that it doesn't have to support legacy DX versions. I understand all that, and it's still not all that special.

You bought into the hype, from many other than GPG, that DX10 is something super special. The reality that is slowly emerging is DX10 will perform poorer compared to XP DX9 for a long long time and maybe always (not just due to drivers either). By the time anything comes out worth it for DX10 instead of DX9, your 8800 card won't be able to run it.

The reasons SOS gave in the intitial topic are very valid and I believe to be 100% honest. The reality of the benefits and performance and what we will get out of it is worthless. I will be running on DX9 on Vista with my 8800 and I won't be crying "hey this isn't DX10 I have been cheated". If you have been cheated by anything, you have been cheated by your own ignorance, learn from it.

Don't reply to this post as some parrot, parroting DX10 info on the internet you don't truly understand unless it's from a developer that will tell it like it is, like I did earlier in this thread.


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 
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I bought this game as i wanted something to push my new system (more so than B2142), and all the talk of DX10 by Chris Taylor himself made SupCom a good choice as the most likely game that will not only push most systems to the edge now, but will also probably be the first to have DX10 in the future.

Anyway, I am disappointed by this announcement. I don't care how much crap MadBoris can spurt out saying that we all deserve to be upset because we're mindless consumers (teen angst?), the bottom line is that this was going to be an exciting feature that would of added to the overall experience.

Life does go on, and other DX10 games will be out over the next few weeks (Bioshock for example) so that will quench our DX10 thirst for a while, Lost Planet for PC has also given us Vista + G80 users a sneak peak on things to come.

It just would of been nice to have, and people have a right to be disappointed.


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 
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I completely agree with you well thought post MadBoris. I appreciate how you can make an intelligent and descriptive post like this that reflects what the software world is all about. I guess there's a reason why you are a forum scout.

Keep up the good work. :)


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 
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I did get an 8800 and Vista for DX10...

personally, i wouldn't mind seeing this game in DX10... and i am disappointed that it won't be happening.

to MadBoris... before you say ANYTHING. just to be clear, i'm not oblivious to what it would take to implement DX10 into SupCom.

i am disappointed, that's all.

i'll be honest... the MAJOR reason i bought SupCom... because my niece wanted someone to play against. i played TA for all of 5 minutes, before ignoring it. for that matter, i've little interest in RTS. i'm more FPS or RPG.

so beyond being disappointed, i don't really care.

i'm looking foward to DX10 in general... i've always been an early adopter... so any attempt to steer me otherwise will simply be meet by my left ear (it's my deaf ear).

what the future holds... who knows... just hope i can stick around long enough to see.*****

*** edit... i realize how that MIGHT sound, so, disclaimer, i do not have any known life threatening issues. but like i said, you never know.


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 

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MadBoris wrote:
I have no sympathy for people that take what a developer says, that they want to put into a game, as some kind of "promise" or gospel. Learn what game development is like, and know it is all vaporware till it ships. It's all plans and hopes, not promises. People need to understand that developing DX10 isn't just clicking a check box, it's rewriting a rendering engine and likely developing new content, ALOT of work for it to be worth it for us or them.

Translation: I have no sympathy for people who believe advertised features, and developers are all liars, according to me, and you shouldn't trust what they say. Just because Chris Taylor, lead developer, says it has DX10 already doesn't mean it does.
Quote:

I have very little sympathy for those that bought hardware for DX10, especially for this game, from some promise from Microsoft and Nvidia that DX10 is something super special and that GPG wanted to implement it. It's not as special as those who have your money would make it out to be. All of you that think so, are mistaken. I don't care how many articles you quote me, I've read them. If don't care what performance benefits you mention on the API, or that it doesn't have to support legacy DX versions. I understand all that, and it's still not all that special.

Translation: I don't care what the evidence says, or the what the truth is.
Quote:

You bought into the hype, from many other than GPG, that DX10 is something super special. The reality that is slowly emerging is DX10 will perform poorer compared to XP DX9 for a long long time and maybe always (not just due to drivers either). By the time anything comes out worth it for DX10 instead of DX9, your 8800 card won't be able to run it.

Translation: I'm going to make up some stuff because I don't understand it. You should take this as gospel, because I say so. DX10 is bad. Hate Micro$oft.
Quote:

The reasons SOS gave in the intitial topic are very valid and I believe to be 100% honest. The reality of the benefits and performance and what we will get out of it is worthless. I will be running on DX9 on Vista with my 8800 and I won't be crying "hey this isn't DX10 I have been cheated". If you have been cheated by anything, you have been cheated by your own ignorance, learn from it.

Translation: Now that I've gotten you to accept my random thoughts, I'm going to berate you about how ignorant you are, even though I'm the one who won't accept evidence in the form of articles from professionals or statements from the developers.
Quote:

Don't reply to this post as some parrot, parroting DX10 info on the internet you don't truly understand unless it's from a developer that will tell it like it is, like I did earlier in this thread.


Don't expect me to respect your opinion. I'm not going to listen to you just because you demand it, especially when you won't accept evidence just because it's contrary to your already chosen position.

I noticed that my last post, which was more brief, got deleted. Sort of like how SoS accidentally deleted my post with all the evidence. One would have thought something would have been learned from the fiasco of deleting an entire thread where the community was talking about how to improve the dwindling online numbers.


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 
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Vampyre wrote:
I noticed that my last post, which was more brief, got deleted.
Forum crashed and everyones posts of that last day or so got the axe.. And to add one point of info to whomever whats to read it.. DX10 *was* in the game.. But was never finalized for the release.. So basically everyones right as far as that tidbit of discontent goes.. :P


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 
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Damm kiddies. You don't even understand what is the true meat of DX10.

DX10 is all about refining the API to make it more efficent from ground up. Developers are the only crowd that actually cares about DX10.

The end-user will not experience any immediate difference in eye candy between DX9 and DX10. The greater efficiency of DX10 will allow developers to squeeze in more effects without killing performance. DX10 also increases the celling the on limits of shaders, but none of the current DX10 hardware can handle the more complex effects that exceed the limits of DX9c with acceptable performance.

The only upcoming title that actually takes advantage of DX10 is Crysis, but Cyrsis will offer a DX9 render path for older hardware. It is currently fiscal suicide for any developer to do a title that requires DX10 hardware. DX10 will not see any significant usage in the next two years where the userbase their hardware catches up.

Remember how long it took DX9-only titles to appear from the day DX9 API was finalized and hardware was ready? It was almost three years! (Radeon 9700PRO => Far Cry).

The good majority of announced "DX10 titles" have their content optimized around DX9. They only have DX10 support for marketing purposes so the publisher can slap a DX10 logo on the gamebox.


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 PostPosted: 23 May, 2007 
 

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Thank you for keeping us informed. Your honesty and straightforwardness is appreciated.

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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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As one of the people who actually bought an 8800 + vista so I could play SupCom with dx10 the second it was patched into it... I can only express my grief and disappointment about this. You shouldn't have promissed DX10 implementation so wildy before imho.

May Starcraft pwn dee !

-Skrie 8)

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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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SupCom=No longer a "Game for Windows"?

Somebody will capatilize on this... surely... only in America tho.

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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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GreenHeart wrote:
If ppl are honest with themselves they KNOW that even a mediocre rts with dx10 will ace this game into non-existence.
.


yeah. sure.

dx10 is so much cooler and better because?

i don't get you people. what do you really expect from directx10 ? that suddenly all games look so much better and shinier? it's nothing more than a partial rewrite of the underlying architecture, that will bring performance benefits and some small visual benefits.

all the completely overhyped and overrated dx10-shots of crysis and fsx let all of you forget one important thing: those games look nearly identical on a dx9 card.

i am totally on gpg's side and welcome their decision to drop dx10 for now. it is not needed at all. you can draw pretty explosions and shiny reflections in dx9 equally good.


Last edited by tecxx on 25 May, 2007, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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GreenHeart wrote:
If ppl are honest with themselves they KNOW that even a mediocre rts with dx10 will ace this game into non-existence.
.


:shock:

Seriously?

You think that?

If the most important part of a game to you is how it looks rather than gameplay, why the buggering hell are you playing computer games. Try this instead:

Get up.
Walk to the window.
Look out.
Watch the 1337 Grfixxxxx 111oneoneon1111eoneo!!!!!!!!!
:twisted:

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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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Xenoc wrote:
GreenHeart wrote:
If ppl are honest with themselves they KNOW that even a mediocre rts with dx10 will ace this game into non-existence.
.


:shock:

Seriously?

You think that?

If the most important part of a game to you is how it looks rather than gameplay, why the buggering hell are you playing computer games. Try this instead:

Get up.
Walk to the window.
Look out.
Watch the 1337 Grfixxxxx 111oneoneon1111eoneo!!!!!!!!!
:twisted:


xactly. and the girls have REAL boobs out there !!!!!!1111


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 PostPosted: 25 May, 2007 
 
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 PostPosted: 27 May, 2007 
 

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openGL FTW, and Nvidia and Quake wars will prove it for pure eye candy AND performance(what a twist!). DirectX has been a scam since it first came out and DX10 proves it. >.>


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 PostPosted: 27 May, 2007 
 

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General_Failure wrote:
openGL FTW, and Nvidia and Quake wars will prove it for pure eye candy AND performance(what a twist!). DirectX has been a scam since it first came out and DX10 proves it. >.>


Especially because of the extension mechanism. With DirectX, Microsoft can just stop supporting it for an OS to force people to upgrade. With OpenGL, they can refuse to upgrade it, but it doesn't matter.

Microsoft HAVE refused to upgrade OpenGL. You know what you get with a new install of XP? OpenGL 1.1, the same version as in 1996. MS has never supported anything higher. But through the extension mechanism graphics card makers can offer support for OpenGL 2.0 anyway, which offers everything the latest versions of Direct3D offer. There were even some features for some cards that only could be used from OpenGL because no Direct3D support was ever added for them.


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 PostPosted: 27 May, 2007 
 
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Xenoc wrote:
GreenHeart wrote:
If ppl are honest with themselves they KNOW that even a mediocre rts with dx10 will ace this game into non-existence.
.


:shock:

Seriously?

You think that?

If the most important part of a game to you is how it looks rather than gameplay, why the buggering hell are you playing computer games. Try this instead:

Get up.
Walk to the window.
Look out.
Watch the 1337 Grfixxxxx 111oneoneon1111eoneo!!!!!!!!!
:twisted:


LOL. If you reread his post, that's not even that ! He believes
the DX10 sticker rocks, no matter what the graphics might even
be, or what the game is, for what matters :lol:

I for one 100% agree with MadBoris' last post. Every word, even
the punctuation :wink:

I believe the PC market is done of 2 types of consumers:

- "kiddies"-style, believing each $MARKETING_LOGO rocks, thus rushing
outside with Moms' purse, to purchase, no matter the cost, the sacred
logo and feel better after.

- mature consumers, challenging every marketing claims and
waiting for features and perf. metrics in order to balance that
with their hard-earnt money, so easily spent.

For people that apparently so compulsively "need" DX10, pls:

- see that for how Vista is absolutely grand:
http://www.theregister.com/2007/03/26/v ... pying_bug/
Some of us actually also work with their PC. We don't really need it
to lock-up when deleting a couple of files :evil:

- name a single added-value for a DX10 version of SupCom,
apart from the magic DX10 logo.
Reading all of this kinda sociologic thread, I've seen noone even
mentionning one !!

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 PostPosted: 27 May, 2007 
 

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Vampyre wrote:
MadBoris wrote:
I have no sympathy for people that take what a developer says, that they want to put into a game, as some kind of "promise" or gospel. Learn what game development is like, and know it is all vaporware till it ships. It's all plans and hopes, not promises. People need to understand that developing DX10 isn't just clicking a check box, it's rewriting a rendering engine and likely developing new content, ALOT of work for it to be worth it for us or them.

Translation: I have no sympathy for people who believe advertised features, and developers are all liars, according to me, and you shouldn't trust what they say. Just because Chris Taylor, lead developer, says it has DX10 already doesn't mean it does.
Quote:

I have very little sympathy for those that bought hardware for DX10, especially for this game, from some promise from Microsoft and Nvidia that DX10 is something super special and that GPG wanted to implement it. It's not as special as those who have your money would make it out to be. All of you that think so, are mistaken. I don't care how many articles you quote me, I've read them. If don't care what performance benefits you mention on the API, or that it doesn't have to support legacy DX versions. I understand all that, and it's still not all that special.

Translation: I don't care what the evidence says, or the what the truth is.
Quote:

You bought into the hype, from many other than GPG, that DX10 is something super special. The reality that is slowly emerging is DX10 will perform poorer compared to XP DX9 for a long long time and maybe always (not just due to drivers either). By the time anything comes out worth it for DX10 instead of DX9, your 8800 card won't be able to run it.

Translation: I'm going to make up some stuff because I don't understand it. You should take this as gospel, because I say so. DX10 is bad. Hate Micro$oft.
Quote:

The reasons SOS gave in the intitial topic are very valid and I believe to be 100% honest. The reality of the benefits and performance and what we will get out of it is worthless. I will be running on DX9 on Vista with my 8800 and I won't be crying "hey this isn't DX10 I have been cheated". If you have been cheated by anything, you have been cheated by your own ignorance, learn from it.

Translation: Now that I've gotten you to accept my random thoughts, I'm going to berate you about how ignorant you are, even though I'm the one who won't accept evidence in the form of articles from professionals or statements from the developers.
Quote:

Don't reply to this post as some parrot, parroting DX10 info on the internet you don't truly understand unless it's from a developer that will tell it like it is, like I did earlier in this thread.


Don't expect me to respect your opinion. I'm not going to listen to you just because you demand it, especially when you won't accept evidence just because it's contrary to your already chosen position.

I noticed that my last post, which was more brief, got deleted. Sort of like how SoS accidentally deleted my post with all the evidence. One would have thought something would have been learned from the fiasco of deleting an entire thread where the community was talking about how to improve the dwindling online numbers.


Translation: I have no idea what DX10 does or means.


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 PostPosted: 27 May, 2007 
 

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Even if they did introduce a Direct10 rendering into supcom (which is not super hard to do, actually) .. they would still need to add new graphical effects to use the new features.. and debug the whole fricking thing again!!!

Worth it? maybe in a retail visual upgrade package, 3-4 years away it might...
but now!!! no fricking way it is not!


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 PostPosted: 29 May, 2007 
 

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Wim wrote:
General_Failure wrote:
openGL FTW, and Nvidia and Quake wars will prove it for pure eye candy AND performance(what a twist!). DirectX has been a scam since it first came out and DX10 proves it. >.>


Especially because of the extension mechanism. With DirectX, Microsoft can just stop supporting it for an OS to force people to upgrade. With OpenGL, they can refuse to upgrade it, but it doesn't matter.

Microsoft HAVE refused to upgrade OpenGL. You know what you get with a new install of XP? OpenGL 1.1, the same version as in 1996. MS has never supported anything higher. But through the extension mechanism graphics card makers can offer support for OpenGL 2.0 anyway, which offers everything the latest versions of Direct3D offer. There were even some features for some cards that only could be used from OpenGL because no Direct3D support was ever added for them.


Wow, I'm amazed I didn't get flamed for bashing DX... awesome that someone actually agrees with me on the internets! o.o

Well I hope that Nvidia turns their *** at mycrapsoft and takes a big steaming sh!t on bill gates desk over this whole DX10 stuff and makes openGL 10 with all the features of DX and a million more. Oh and cross platform of course so we can actually get more than 5 or so games on other OS's ._.

Also, of course MS stopped at 1.1, they never made openGL in the first place(bored people did), DX was supposed to be MS's fix to 3DFX back in the day and it looked like a steaming pile of poo(Anyone remember quake 1 3DFX'ized vs Jedi Knight? The difference was just amazing and DX looked more software than anything and ran like crap). But, since everyone keeps BUYING THEIR CRAP! M$ will pump out the crap and cram it down stupid peoples throats. I'm glad this game isn't going DX10, but I'd love it if they would go openGL more so I could port it XD


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 PostPosted: 29 May, 2007 
 
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General_Failure wrote:
Wim wrote:
General_Failure wrote:
openGL FTW, and Nvidia and Quake wars will prove it for pure eye candy AND performance(what a twist!). DirectX has been a scam since it first came out and DX10 proves it. >.>


Especially because of the extension mechanism. With DirectX, Microsoft can just stop supporting it for an OS to force people to upgrade. With OpenGL, they can refuse to upgrade it, but it doesn't matter.

Microsoft HAVE refused to upgrade OpenGL. You know what you get with a new install of XP? OpenGL 1.1, the same version as in 1996. MS has never supported anything higher. But through the extension mechanism graphics card makers can offer support for OpenGL 2.0 anyway, which offers everything the latest versions of Direct3D offer. There were even some features for some cards that only could be used from OpenGL because no Direct3D support was ever added for them.


Wow, I'm amazed I didn't get flamed for bashing DX... awesome that someone actually agrees with me on the internets! o.o

Well I hope that Nvidia turns their *** at mycrapsoft and takes a big steaming sh!t on bill gates desk over this whole DX10 stuff and makes openGL 10 with all the features of DX and a million more. Oh and cross platform of course so we can actually get more than 5 or so games on other OS's ._.

Also, of course MS stopped at 1.1, they never made openGL in the first place(bored people did), DX was supposed to be MS's fix to 3DFX back in the day and it looked like a steaming pile of poo(Anyone remember quake 1 3DFX'ized vs Jedi Knight? The difference was just amazing and DX looked more software than anything and ran like crap). But, since everyone keeps BUYING THEIR CRAP! M$ will pump out the crap and cram it down stupid peoples throats. I'm glad this game isn't going DX10, but I'd love it if they would go openGL more so I could port it XD


Well, I'm not anti or pro Microsoft, but truth be told, they made
one good API that has the merit to exist, perform OK and walk
the walk.
OpenGL is good also but hasn't unfortunately gained complete
momentum, despite being really close some years ago.

Sure, that bugs me to see people re-inventing the wheel and
making it square to protect their market, but hey, that's about
the critical mass escalation game, and Microsoft won.

Now, for DX10, it's absolutely not there yet as is not Vista,
and surely a game developped during 2005-2006 mostly
will gain only problems from this experimentation.

At that point of the thread, the kiddies might have got that and
buried the whines.

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 PostPosted: 29 May, 2007 
 

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General_Failure wrote:
Well I hope that Nvidia turns their *** at mycrapsoft and takes a big steaming sh!t on bill gates desk over this whole DX10 stuff and makes openGL 10 with all the features of DX and a million more. Oh and cross platform of course so we can actually get more than 5 or so games on other OS's ._.


It already is cross platform, it started on SGI systems, and SGI made it available to other companies.

From: http://opengl.org/about/overview/
"OpenGL runs on every major operating system including Mac OS, OS/2, UNIX, Windows 95/98, Windows 2000, Windows NT, Linux, OPENStep, and BeOS; it also works with every major windowing system, including Win32, MacOS, Presentation Manager, and X-Window System. OpenGL is callable from Ada, C, C++, Fortran, Python, Perl and Java and offers complete independence from network protocols and topologies."

To be specific about Linux and Nvidia, Nvidia has made OpenGL drivers available for a long time. If you don't see more cross-platform Linux games, it's just because some game developers decide the market is too small to bother (it doesn't have to require much more programming, but testing and support costs would increase). In any case, the limited number of Linux games has nothing to do with technical problems, it's merely a matter of publisher priorities.


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 PostPosted: 29 May, 2007 
 
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Krogoth wrote:
Damm kiddies. You don't even understand what is the true meat of DX10.

DX10 is all about refining the API to make it more efficent from ground up. Developers are the only crowd that actually cares about DX10.

The end-user will not experience any immediate difference in eye candy between DX9 and DX10. The greater efficiency of DX10 will allow developers to squeeze in more effects without killing performance. DX10 also increases the celling the on limits of shaders, but none of the current DX10 hardware can handle the more complex effects that exceed the limits of DX9c with acceptable performance.

The only upcoming title that actually takes advantage of DX10 is Crysis, but Cyrsis will offer a DX9 render path for older hardware. It is currently fiscal suicide for any developer to do a title that requires DX10 hardware. DX10 will not see any significant usage in the next two years where the userbase their hardware catches up.

Remember how long it took DX9-only titles to appear from the day DX9 API was finalized and hardware was ready? It was almost three years! (Radeon 9700PRO => Far Cry).

The good majority of announced "DX10 titles" have their content optimized around DX9. They only have DX10 support for marketing purposes so the publisher can slap a DX10 logo on the gamebox.


Exactomundo, anyone who buys a dx10 card just because they want to play dx10 game is hilarious. you wont be noticing any difference. did you notice any diference from dx8 to dx9? NO, lol. give it a rest already.


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 PostPosted: 29 May, 2007 
 

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Thanks guys, you just saved me **** loads of money. I have been gaming for about 11 years now, and with all the updates over the years, it amounts to a fair chunk of change. I had to still do a small upgrade to play this game, but I was hoping to hold off on a big one for at least another year. I don't need to be bleeding edge anymore, leading edge is good enough.

I run just an AMD X2 3800+ with 2 GB of Ram and an X850XT video card. I can't turn on all the eye candy but I can live with that. My video card only had shader 2 but hey that's still good enough to play this game. I can even play the big maps with MadBoris' fix.

I was dreading having to have to go to Vista (ughhh - especially when every benchmark out there shows it sucks compared to XP in gaming). Then I would have had to upgrade the hardware to get the DX10 support and also to increase the playability in Vista.

I am totally pissed that Microsoft didn't put DX10 support into XP, they could have done it but chose not to in order to make more money. I am now glad that I can wait and take my time, as Supreme Commander is the game my buddies and I have been waiting for for over a year and a half.

In a year's time, supcom will still be a game of choice and the hardware will be much much more affordable. Let the 1st person shooter guys spend all their money to test that new hardware which we are seeing is not currently optimized for DX10.

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