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 PostPosted: 07 Jul, 2011 
 
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I fear, having an completely alternative to GPGnet will split the already small community. And thats the most worst we can get. :?
...Just my 2 Cents...

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 PostPosted: 07 Jul, 2011 
 

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First client Alpha Release :

http://users.edpnet.be/zepilot/FaLobbyAlpha1.zip

If at any point you've a big problem (doesn't start or something), download

http://users.edpnet.be/zepilot/faLobby.lib

and replace the file in your folder.

The program is supposed to auto update correctly.

Any bug or idea must be posted here :
https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/falobby/ ... tatus=open

I won't fix or add anything not posted there. It help me keeping track of bugs and patchs. You must register to bitbucket in order to attach files.

****************************************************************************
Forged Alliance Lobby
****************************************************************************

Autor: Ze_Pilot
Version: 0.0.0.0a
Date: Tue 06/07/2011

I. Description

Offering an alternate, easier -and hopefully- better experience than GPGNet.
A Custom Lobby with an IRC chat, a Trueskill(tm) based Ladder and upcoming features like fan-based patch support, mods and maps, achievements, stats...

II. Requirements

A clean patched version of Forged Alliance (Build 3599)
The Forged Alliance Lobby (Version 0.0.0.0a)


III. How to Use

-Unzip the FAlobby.zip file in a new directory of your choice.
-Start it by double-clicking on FALobby.exe.
-If its the first time you run it, you need a new account.
-Point the path to your ForgedAlliance.exe (normally it's C:\Program Files\THQ\Gas Powered Games\Supreme Commander - Forged Alliance\bin)
-Set the connection to an open port.

Now you can host and join games!

IV. History:

Version 0.0.0.0a - First release (06.07.2011)

V. Compatibility

This tool has been tested under the following platforms:
Windows 7 Pro 64bits Edition


VI. Known Issues

None so far.

If you get an error or if you find a bug, please report it:
https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/falobby/ ... tatus=open

IMPORTANT: Send the debug.log and fa.log file found in the FALobby folder if you encounter a bug.
Either send the file or copy/paste the log.
Without it, we cannot debug FALobby!

VII. Additional Resources

The official FALobby Roadmap
https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/falobby/wiki/RoadMap

The FALobby bug/idea listing
https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/falobby/issues

The French CanardPC forum
http://forum.canardpc.com/threads/8726- ... d-Alliance

The Official GPG forum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52273





Thank you for testing FALobby and feel free to comment it!
Ze_PilOt

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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Koecher wrote:
I fear, having an completely alternative to GPGnet will split the already small community. And thats the most worst we can get. :?
...Just my 2 Cents...


The goal is to propose a better alternative to GPGnet. Something that can handle new patches, new ladders, new features.

For example, I'm working with the trueSkill implementation to track EVERY game (custom, mod or ladder) you play. It will contribute to your global ranking, that will show in the game lobby lister.

With trueSkill, I can compute with these informations a "game sanity evaluation" that will tell you if the game your are going to join is balanced or not.

The goal is not to split the community, but bring everybody on a better system.
And more importantly : Bring back old players (that's already working great with a the small community I choose to alpha test the first releases, after 1 year, they are all back playing FA every evening !), and bring new ones !
Think TASpring, that's my reference.

I've mailed Chris Taylor about my project, here is part of the answer :

Quote:
We only keep the gpg.net site running out of
our obligation to the fans and our contractual requirements... but have
very little say in how this game is managed, controlled, or supported
moving forward.


Does that sound to you like something with a bright future ?
You can be sure that once THQ is done selling FA, GPGNet will go down pretty quickly...

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 
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Ze_PilOt wrote:
The goal is to propose a better alternative to GPGnet. Something that can handle new patches, new ladders, new features.


Yeah, but you will split the community. If there are 2 totaly alternative platforms, (assuming yours is good and working) some players will use the one, some the other.
Thats the Price you will pay, for have new patches (wich we dont need imo. Balancing stuff can be fixed using mods; works quite well), new ladders (we already have fa-ladder) and such stuff.
Also, bringing back old players will work as it does every time there is something new. They will come back, play some games, and go away again.

Don't misunderstand me. It maybe sounds like my only aim is to criticize the project, but it isnt. I Just take a look at the other side of this new shiny coin, while you keep staring at the bright side (for understandable reasons, course you are the one who made it).

It would be great to have something like that on "stand by", for the case of GPGnet will go down one day (what will take some time ;) ). But releasing it while GPGnet is still there, will neither give any good benefit to your project, nor to GPGnet.
Please keep that in mind and think about the aftereffects, witch can go along with with that project.

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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If FA die because of this project, I will close the server.

In the meantime, you and me don't know how things will go, so wait and see. And the FA Lobby server will be up until someone bad happen to FA.

FA-Ladder, mod 3603, CBP, playertrack, ... That's all good, but it's not integrated. How many people are really aware of these things ?
Is all games on GPGNet hosted with 3603 ? I don't think so.
That's some really good work totally lost in the heavy process of doing things manually.

Also, every little tweak to these mod required the user to know that a update is there, download it, ....
At every release, a lot of game stop being hosted with these because not everybody got the latest version, ....
That keep updating and tweaking balance VERY difficult.

My system will update all your stuffs automatically, you will always be up-to-date without worrying or bothering.

Also, don't underestimate the power of updates : A user receiving regular updates get the feeling that the game is evolving and got a future, and keep him playing it.
Look at Vampire Bloodline, look at TASpring.

How many people left because 3603 was never released officially -and support dropped - ?
How many people would still be there if patches was still coming on a regular basis ?

That's what I'm trying to offer here.

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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Also,

I can't make a alternative system just in case GPGNet goes down. For many reasons :

- I can't test it if nobody is aware of it. It demand a lot of debugging, and so a lot of testers.
- It's a lot of time and efforts, and I must do it even it won't maybe never come online ?
- I don't remember someone complaining about splitting the community during Galactic War development. It was not so far from my project (and the ultimate goal is to revive GW, one step at a time, first step is to get working lobbies and ladder).

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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nice z pilot looks interesting will give it a shot when my new gaming pc is full working and live :D

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 
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Does this lobby force all players to use 3603-type balance (either the patch or the mod)? If so, I'll check it out.

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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Man what a great work you doing .If anything going to revive SC:FA its this. Do not listen to haters -they do not know what they talking about.

Automated patches and mod/maps download, good rating system, maybe even tourney system -is something GPG.net will never provide as its on life support

SC:FA is great game. Unfortunately its been slowly dying due to non existing support. Such lobby as this could bring it back to life


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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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X-Cubed wrote:
Does this lobby force all players to use 3603-type balance (either the patch or the mod)? If so, I'll check it out.


It will. It won't be a mod but a patch. And that will only be the first :)

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 
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Patch? Unofficial but with GPG approval? I like!

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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X-Cubed wrote:
Patch? Unofficial but with GPG approval? I like!



No GPGNet approval sadly :)

But there will be a sage council, elected by players and ranking ! :)

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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First update in some minutes :

Patch log :

* IRC
- Time logging
- Trimming white spaces at the start and end of messages + length limitation (little less than IRC specification)
- Scrolling bar will work better and support resizing of the windows
- Friend list is working. You can add and remove friends (they got a heart avatar + purple colored messages)
- Main windows will save his state, position and size.

* Login and account
- Finish button is renamed Login (you don't have to click, just press enter BTW)
- Check login on account creation : No spaces, no special caracters (- and _ allowed), max 15 chars.

* Games creation and Lobby
- Map names should be displayed correctly -in FA format (SCMP007...) - First stone of the map Vault !
- Clients are quitting more correctly, ghosts should appears less.
- DisconnectToPeer added server side : peoples leaving games are disconnected from others players (solve the ghost in FA lobbies hopefully)


All these issues were tickets in the ticket system. I've solved almost all of the tickets of yesterday.
So, use them !
https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/falobby/ ... tatus=open

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 
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About the "patch" that this system is supposed to enforce, will it just be a mod-like patch or will you be using the 3603 FA exe with the desired balance changes/bug fixes? Some people have problems running FA in 3599 but the 3603 exe fixed their problems, so this is rather important.

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 

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Update live : You just have to (re)start the program !

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X-Cubed wrote:
About the "patch" that this system is supposed to enforce, will it just be a mod-like patch or will you be using the 3603 FA exe with the desired balance changes/bug fixes? Some people have problems running FA in 3599 but the 3603 exe fixed their problems, so this is rather important.



I will start by using the official 3603 and add the mods on it.

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 PostPosted: 08 Jul, 2011 
 
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Great! I'll check it out one of these days.

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 PostPosted: 09 Jul, 2011 
 

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No big updates client-side this week-end, but I've fixed a big bug server side :
Game results was crashing.

So, a lot less (hopefully none) of ghost games in the gamelist, and I can begin the implementation of TrueSkill and ladder.

I've also a "hole punching" technique code that works, it can *maybe* avoid nil in games for good.

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 PostPosted: 14 Jul, 2011 
 

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Update :

The server is running smoothly for a week, I'm finishing implementing TrueSkill for the leader board.

What is TrueSkill ? One of the biggest feature of my project !

TrueSkill
---------

- Why choose trueskill over ELO ?


ELO system got many flaws. First one is that it's unable to handle anything else than head to head games.

Teams Games
------------
ELO teams games must be 2vs2 or 3vs3, can't be 2vs2vs2. And each team will be considerate as a single player, meaning that the leader board will show a result for each pair of player, for every pair that will ever exists.

TrueSkill can handle any match up. Teams are the weighted sum of the players inside, and results are correctly propagated from the team result to the players in the teams. It can also easily handle FFA, 2vs2vs2 and more.

Draws
-------
ELO can't handle draws correctly. For ELO, an drawn is a half-win half-lost game, and that's it.

TrueSkill takes draw very seriously.
Each map got a draw percentage based of all games played on that map.
TrueSkill considers draws as a meaningful outcome : You were matched with a equally skilled opponent.

But Let's considers two players with the same skill.

On a "normal map" where draws are unlikely, a draw game will lead to no difference in skill, but the system is learning the player better (actual skills are accurate - see below).
That result will also increase the draw probability on that map.

Now, on a map like "Winter Duel" where draws are 80% chances of outcome.
As draw is expected as result, the skill won't move, but the system doesn't know the players better, so that game is meaningless compared the "normal" map case.
That result will also increase the draw probability on Winter Duel.

Now let's say that player 1 wins.

On the "normal" map, the player will gain some points. Let's say it gain +4 points, and the loser -4.
That result will also decrease the draw probability on that map.

Now, on the Winter Duel map. As draw was highly expected, the fact that player 1 is winning means that's he is actually WAY better than his opponent. On that map, instead of +4, he will gain +6, and the loser -6.
That result will also decrease the draw probability on Winter Duel.

Inflation
----------

ELO system tend to inflate rating over time.
Because it's only comparing 2 players ratings to determine an new rating, a better player who plays often will gain more and more points over time.
Think of GPGNet ladder. At the beginning, the top 10 players were around 1900.
And the "end", they were around 2500.
Does that means that their skill is increasing ? Maybe. But not that much.
The rating increase because, as all good top tier players, they plays often. And as they are goods, they win games, and gain points, increase the rating over time.

To reduce inflation, ELO system got a "K-Factor", limiting the maximum points a player can have for a game. GPGNet got an default K-Factor of 30 if I remember correctly.
The Chess leaderboard make the K-Factor varying depending of the rating of the player (A 2400+ players got a K-Factor of 16 where a noob got 32).
That's arbitrary, not accurate and only artificially decrease the inflation problem. But it's still there.

Trueskill is less sensible to inflation. When you start a game, TrueSkill compute the possible -and probable- outcome of the game : it estimates what are your chances of winning.
Let's say it predict that you will win that game.

If you really win the game, as it was the expected outcome, you gain points depending of the "chances of ranking" factor (itself depending of the difference in skill between players, and the outcome probability).
If you lose the game, as an unexpected result, you will lose more points.
On paper, it sounds a lot like ELO, but the algorithms behind are more evolved, and once you reach your real rating, unless you play really badly or improve a lot, you will stay at that rank.

Image

That graph represent a trueSkill rating for football teams. As you can see, team 1 is the best, and their rank stay stable.
Team 5 had a bad start (you lost your first games), and were badly rated. Over time, TrueSkill manage to correct that and find a stable skill.
Team 2 is the most interesting case : It's a new team, really good. At start, it was rated way under their real skill.
But you can notice how fast the system was able to find their real place !
That's another advantage of TrueSkill : It can rate good and fast !


TrueSkill advantages
----------------------

TrueSkill can rate ANY game.
That's why ANY custom game or ranked will contribute to your skill rating.
TrueSKill can lower the impact of your result : A FFA is less meaningful than a 1v1, so the outcome of a FFA will contribute less.
Of course, there is a separated 1v1 leader board, but any game rates you.
That's mean that EVERYONE will have a rating.
That's mean that TrueSkill can show you the rating of the players when you join ANY game.
That way, you can know if the game you will play will be balanced for you or not.

Better !
As explained before, TrueSkill compute an outcome of the game before it plays.
But it can also compute a match quality factor : How well the game is balanced.
That's mean that for a team game, TrueSkill can give you the best team combination in order to balance the teams !

Of course, it doesn't take in account the fact that some players plays better in team, or teamed with a particular player, or play awfully on that map or that particular spot. But hopefully, as any game contribute to your rating, these abnormalities will smooth and the game quality factor can be trusted.

Some examples :
(mean is skill and standardDeviation is how the game know you - lower = closer to mean)

Code:
2 vs 2 :

player 1 : mean=20.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000
player 2 : mean=25.0000, standardDeviation=6.0000
player 3 : mean=27.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000
player 4 : mean=40.0000, standardDeviation=5.0000
configuration : 2 teams

the best composition for teams is
team 1
player 1(mean=20.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
player 4(mean=40.0000, standardDeviation=5.0000)
team 2
player 3(mean=27.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
player 2(mean=25.0000, standardDeviation=6.0000)

Game Quality : 45.7996125513%   

3 vs 3 :
player 1 : mean=20.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000
player 2 : mean=25.0000, standardDeviation=6.0000
player 3 : mean=27.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000
player 4 : mean=40.0000, standardDeviation=5.0000
player 5 : mean=32.0000, standardDeviation=2.0000
player 6 : mean=24.0000, standardDeviation=4.0000
configuration : 2 teams

the best composition for teams is

team 1
player 4(mean=40.0000, standardDeviation=5.0000)
player 1(mean=20.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
player 6(mean=24.0000, standardDeviation=4.0000)
team 2
player 2(mean=25.0000, standardDeviation=6.0000)
player 3(mean=27.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
player 5(mean=32.0000, standardDeviation=2.0000)

Game Quality : 57.6735412498%

in 2 vs 2 vs 2 :
   
(same players as 3v3)

configuration : 3 teams

the best composition for teams is

team 1
player 2(mean=25.0000, standardDeviation=6.0000)
player 3(mean=27.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
team 2
player 4(mean=40.0000, standardDeviation=5.0000)
player 1(mean=20.0000, standardDeviation=8.0000)
team 3
player 6(mean=24.0000, standardDeviation=4.0000)
player 5(mean=32.0000, standardDeviation=2.0000)

Game Quality : 30.2684790963%



That would be an information available anytime in the Forged Alliance Lobby, and in the list of games !


Now the core of trueSkill. You can stop here this if you are not interesting in deep details :)

In TrueSkill, skill is separated in 2 variables. One is your estimated skill.
The others is the incertitude of your skill :

For example, when you start, we assume that you are an average players, meaning a skill of 1500 (this is an arbitrary value matching GPGNet values).
But as the system doesn't know you, you have a incertitude value of 500.

That's mean, more or less, that your real skill is between 1000 and 2000.

That's a big range, and that's why an uncertainty value of 500 mean nothing for the matchmaking system. (So you can be matched with almost anyone until the system learn you)

The more you play, the less uncertain the value of your skill will be. If you are a perfect robot playing others perfect robots with various skills, your uncertainty value will decrease toward 0, meaning that your estimated skill is closer and closer to your real skill. (meaning that 100% of the games you play have the outcomes predicted before the start of these games)

But that's for your skill, not your rank. For ranking you, trueSkill use a conservative estimate of your skill. That value is 3.
For a skill of 1500, and an incertitude of 500, that's mean that your rank will be 1500-3*500 = 0.

Trueskill always rank you with a value that is likely lower that your true rank would be, but unlikely worst : You can think at your rank as your skill in a real bad day.

That's not really fair, but that way we can compare players efficiently : given 2 ranks, 1600 and 1650, we can be almost sure that the 1650 player have more chances to be slightly better than the one at 1600.
TrueSkill ladder will be more "compact" with numbers, but a little difference in these numbers have a bigger impact that on ELO.

More details here : http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/
even more details here : http://www.moserware.com/2010/03/comput ... skill.html

My implementation is the Moser one. It will be open-sourced separately to the FA Forever project.

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Last edited by Ze_PilOt on 26 Jul, 2011, edited 4 times in total.

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 PostPosted: 14 Jul, 2011 
 

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very interesting :)

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 PostPosted: 14 Jul, 2011 
 

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Dark_MadMax wrote:
SC:FA is great game. Unfortunately its been slowly dying...


Well....., the death is a teeny weeny tiny bit slower starting a month ago which was when I discovered SC:FA and bought everything I could find about SC (book included) immediately after. Point me to some SC stuff and I'll buy something... :D


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 PostPosted: 14 Jul, 2011 
 
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Interesting that you are using TrueSkill. When you first mentioned it, I thought you were using the MS ranking system but I wasn't sure if that was TrueSkill or TruSkill, so I thought it was your own system.

So you are using the 50-point scale of normal TrueSkill, right? My concern is that one of the reasons that Relic stopped using GFWL for DoW2: Retribution was that they thought that TrueSkill was not very well suited for RTS games since the range of ratings was too limited with 50. Are you following the 50-point scale or have you modified it? Are you confident that TrueSkill will work well?

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X-Cubed wrote:
So you are using the 50-point scale of normal TrueSkill, right? My concern is that one of the reasons that Relic stopped using GFWL for DoW2: Retribution was that they thought that TrueSkill was not very well suited for RTS games since the range of ratings was too limited with 50. Are you following the 50-point scale or have you modified it? Are you confident that TrueSkill will work well?


The 50 point scale is not a problem. I don't know DoW2, but as I've understood, you don't see any digit to your rating.
Here is some of the results with the default TrueSkill range :
29.6265
30.4154
27.6295

The fact is that due to the algo, the difference between 29.6 and 30.4 is already huge. Of course if you have truncated values, a lot of people will have 29 and 30. And that's dumb.
The minimum should have been to multiply these values by 100, giving at rating of
2962
3041
2762
and still using integers.

I don't know what Relic was thinking when they've remove the digits, but I think they didn't understood the system at all. Also, the 50 limit is not true. You can go beyond if the dynamic factor is low (A value added to the deviation at the start of the evaluation, in order to take in account the fact that your skill change from game to game), or if the Beta is high (Beta is the difference of skill where you have 80% chances of winning. As It's taken in account to compute the probable outcome of the game, the higher the value his, the more spread the leader board is).
In fact, with a default value of 25 (higher score around 50), the Beta is -normally- 4.16.
That's mean that someone ranked 24.16 has 80% chances of winning over someone at 20. You can see that digits are important with small scales.
Higher beta means more random games (skills not really importants, like Uno), lower beta means that the game need skilled and not random factors (like Go).

The default values for TrueSkill are 25 and 8.3 (25/3) for deviation.
I will use 1500 and 500 (1500/3).
That will lead EXACTLY to the same leader board ranking-wise, but with greater numbers in the system (and avoiding multiplying the results for display). Also, it will be on the GPG scale range. (well, I think that top players will go around 2800 pretty quickly, but not a lot more).

So yes, TrueSkill is very well suited for RTS, a lot more than ELO, but you have to use a brain and not remove half of the values you get :)

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 PostPosted: 14 Jul, 2011 
 
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you win. keep this up for a few years and ill buy the FA license ;)


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 PostPosted: 15 Jul, 2011 
 

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Soul wrote:
you win. keep this up for a few years and ill buy the FA license ;)

LOL you will need more than a few years to get the publishing rights of thq LOL

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