Hi,

i was just doing something and speaking with brandon, when i had an idea to make
t1 usefull later in the game,

my idea is simple,

give a t2/t3 (mixture) an intel field that will give t1 units a hp and wep dmg increase to match higher tier units, i think this could make them usefull later came, there quick to build and coupled with the generator could be devasting in packs,

what do you think of this idea?

yes, i like the idea of t1 being stronger at late game. But I want them to look stronger as well, just having a stat boost is kind of weird.
In my mod some units get upgraded as you upgrade your factory, Im planning on adding this effect on all my t1 and t2 units.

explain a little more? what happens?

When people are already complaining about unit overlap, I can't see any reason to make it even worse by adding T1 and T2 units to the late game.

IMO if you really want T1/T2 units useful long side T3 units, you'd need to re-balance everything, and not just closing the gap between the tiers, but also introducing diversity between and within the tiers much in the same Way FunkOff did with his mod I forget the name of......

Mike

i think the whole complaint about overlap is because there using more than one unit mod, there prolly using the top 3 unit mods, so there argument is kinda nurfed, we all know each mods brings its own take on units.. it would be great if all the unit modders left here all starting working on a single mod, which intergrated the best parts/units of each mod, however that will never ever happen, so it is what it is.. many units that fill roles in each mod as individuals but as a whole when all used, to many units for some

never enough for me personally, the more the better i think.

what you would then get is everyone spamming t1 units and then buffing them to match t2/t2 and no one making anything else because t1 units can be insta built. you'll need to add a cost increase and build time increase as well in order for this to work reasonably well.

It is more present when Mods are used, but it's also present in the stock game as well, and once T1/T2 units are used alongside T3 units it'll be even worse.

Assuming all units end up being equivalent, you have things like direct fire units;
Striker
Pillar
Mongoose
Riptide
Titan
Percival
all performing a similar role, which do you use? The 'best' one of course. Its why people tend to only build Percivals over Titans, the Percivals tend to just be better overall, especially as the game progresses.

In the end you can do what you want, but I don't think it's improve the game without doing a lot of in-dept changes like I mentioned before.

Mike

My initial thought is no.
I'd rather see more upgrade/enhancement options, where players can spend mass & energy to upgrade units. Even then, I don't expect the level 1 units to compete with the more powerful units, and I'm ok with that.

Stuart

Don't make them stronger in the hope they become useful. As it has been pointed out already - that **** doesn't work.

Make them useful so they become useful. It's a simple matter of right tool for the right job.


If I were to write a balance mod, I'd be removing half of the FA units. No more;

Moongoose,
Percival,
Hoplite,
Blaze,
Neptune,
Restorer,
Kennel,
Hive,
probably a few more too.

And it certainly wouldn't be compatible with unit-adding mods (sorry entire modding community).

Yes, there'd be bitching and moaning because I've just removed basically everything that people love. But they love those units because those units suck and are too good.

I'd take the four tech-levels and mush then down to three. Take out the T3 resource structures.

That'd be a good start.

Hi,

Lets all hope bm doesnt make a balance mod lol

it just goes to show, on paper some ideas look good, however in practice they just arent viable.

ill have to think of something else.

thx for all the posts.

Dave.

Sorry I agree with everyone else, making T1 useful in late game is an open door to imbalance, so it is not a good idea.

I understand the need to make T1 more useful though, they are underused in the game. In my (home)mod I have solved the issue by giving T1 units an hp and damage boost and introducing a time limit, ie : no T2 units before 15Min mark, no T3 units before 30 min mark and so on, so there is a real T1 strategy in early game and as far as the 30 min mark (afterward they loose usefulness), the same goes for T2. Of course in the end you have a very different game, slower pacing, different strategies, but we enjoy it this way.

For the rest I love new units and new mods so keep them coming, the more the merrier !

BM- lets get started!

I think a path that can be explored is making units (even more) slower but (even) more beefier as the tech goes up. For example (numbers compared to current FA/ numbers open to tweaking):
T1: unchanged
T2: 20% less travel and turn speed, 5% more hp
T3: 40% less travel and turn speed, 10% more hp
EXP: 60% less travel and turn speed, 15% more hp

That way you really can use T1 in late game for flanking, raiding and swarming.

Except that T3 units still have what, 3-4 times the range than T1 units, and even if T1 units can outrun T3 units, T3 structures have so much HP that you'd need 100 or more T1 units to effectively take them out, if the defenses don't take them out first.

As I said before, I don't think this is an issue you can fix with "superficial" changes like that, you need to re-structure how the tiers work and change the basic flow of the game.

Mike

I hear you on that, although I think the above changes wouldn't hurt the game either.

Another path might be to accept as a fact that higher tier units are superior/more effecient to lower tier units(as they mostly are now). However, the higher tier units would somehow be limited in their availiblity, "forcing" you to keep building lower tier units throughout the game and trying to use them as effectively as possible in combination with your higher tier units.
One way to achieve this would be to introduce a third 'rare' resource, which would be mined at a steady rate from mass extractors (on top of the mass they mine). T1 units would cost 0 'rare' mass, T2 a certain amount and T3/EXP a bigger amount. Possibly, the rare mass rate would not increase by upgrading mass extractors, further promoting expansion.

They also wouldn't change anything either, as I pointed out, T1 is still terribly outclassed in any kind of engagement, in fact your speed nerfs would hurt the game by drastically slowing down the progress of the game once you pass the T1 phase.

And adding a 3rd reasource for just T2/T3 wouldn't improve those phases either, for example, what happens on a smaller map where you just can't get enough income for the 3rd income to go beyond the T2 phase?

Mike

How about we forget the notion that units are divided into tiers?

I think a better system would be that different units do different things, and have different stats.

Should build limitations be re-worked so that factories can build everything - as long as it fits on the gantry?

If you want changes like that, look at the ATW mod, it does make T2 more viable later game, as T3 are too slow for most things (when except maybe aeon...) but T1 will never be viable when you have T3, the hp and damage difference is just huge.