@LordMang
I simple removed all mods except Blacksps, cfbp, lobby enhancement and the duncane ai's but i forgot to add 01_aisupport.scd which i assume is the pack you were referring to.

The result was pretty much identical to what you descibed. I was surprised that each Ai massed low tech land units in their base and fought occasional air battles.

Adding the 02_sorian_ai_pack.scd made them work like normal. It might be an issue with 01_aisupport.scd and 3603 or something. Would not be caught easily because most people would install both sorian and duncane mods.

I don't use the Lobby Enhancement Mod, so have to add the 01_aisupport.scd file, as per Duncane's readme file. Also, the readme says that you should not add the 01_aisupport.scd file if you're already using the Lobby Enhancement Mod (i.e. use one or the other, but not both).

Do you recommend using the Lobby Enhancement Mod?

It makes it easier to add ai's to the game. Ive seen no problems with it.

Ok, I'll try it. Thanks.

After re-installing the Sorian AI mod, I get the same results as you (units are now attacking the other's base) when using Duncane's AI now.

But, I still see that some experiementals (e.g. the Cybran Megalith) aren't moving from their home base. In fact, they aren't moving at all. Did you see the same behavior for some of the experimentals when using Duncane's AI?

Duncane Ai does have some issues with experimentals. They sometimes build them and leave them in their base but im not sure if this is due to the ai or the dozens of mods ive been using. It also tends to favor building supcom fa experimentals over the modded ones. Ive only seen a basilisk being built once and it got destroyed before completion .

Sorian ai sometimes leaves experimentals in their base but this is far less common. Sorian ai often builds modded experimentals, im not sure if this is due to the ai or the ai support by the mods.

I hope these issues can be fixed.

I noticed the same thing, Vile.

While Duncane might be the better AI mod, it doesn't seem to be supported fully by the BlackOps mod when it comes to building and using experimentals.

Sorian's AI is the way to go if you want the AI to build and use the experimentals unique to the BlackOps mod.

Excluding experimentals, all other blackops modded units are used quite (if not more) effectively by the duncane ai. Fighting a mix of duncane and sorian ai should be most interesting.

Just pitted Sorian AIx vs. Duncane AIx Land on Seton's Clutch map (vanilla FA).

Sorian won the first match in 55 mins.

Then, Sorian won the second match in 40 mins.

Will try both AIs with the BlackOps Unleashed+Balance mod next.

I think the Duncane AIx Adaptive performs better than the AIx Land, the land tends to spam t1 for too long while adaptive techs up better.

Also, 1v1 in Sentons is advantageous to the Sorian AI. Like i said earlier, the Sorian AI is better at expanding and on a large map like sentons with that many expansions, Sorian would perform better. Duncane crushed the Sorian at 2v2 sentons.

Ive tested the ai's multiple times on a variety of maps and my observation was a general one. I didnt pit them against one another to find out the winner (maybe a little, i was a bit curious), i was more interested in their strategies and gameplay.

I was quite impressed the aggressive nature of the duncane ai. It send large batches or waves of units in formation later with good mobile shield cover.Each wave is over 3 times the size of sorian ai wave and can be quite hard to stop even with a well defended base. It also techs at a suitable rate to keep pushing the player consistently.

I also liked the way it uses planes; it send interceptors and bomber in batches so that they are harder to stop and are able to do more effective damage. Ive been taken off guard by t1 interceptor mass providing them with air superiority which they make use off using bombers. Their base structure has decent shield and smd cover.

However, Duncane ai is not as effective at expansion as the Sorian ai which tends to create multiple expansion bases which can be tough to take out. As said before, Duncane also tends to build experimentals and leave them waiting at their base. It also only builds a limited number of modded experimentals favouring the traditional ones while Sorian likes modded units a lot (i noticed this for Blackops, 4DC and FA Prototypes).

Thanks for the excellent analysis!

Here's my test:

Match 1:
Vanilla FA (no mods)
2 Duncane AIx Adaptive v. 2 Sorian AiX (Note: Sorian AIx Adaptive is not the same as Duncane's AIx Adaptive, based on their descriptions)
Cybran v. Cybran
Seton's Clutch (20km x 20km)

Both AIs sent large number of units to attack the other. Duncane's AI made much better use of formations and formed its units as such (like in SC2). Sorian's AI streamed its units with little use of formations. I believe the number of units sent by the AIs to attack the other is almost the same, but Duncane's use of formations gives the illusion that it sends more units to attack.

Minute 15: All AIs had the same score. The battle was a stalemate, where the battle line was practically at the exact center point of the isthmus on the map.

Minute 20: Duncane's forces broke through Sorian's lines and sent a large force to attack Sorian's forward firebase. Duncane's combined score is now 40,000 pts greater than that of Sorian's.

Minute 25: Sorian's forward firebase successfully repels the attack, but has no units left to counterattack and charge the relatively unoccupied center isthmus area. Meanwhile, Duncane's forces are amassing already for another charge against the firebase. Duncane produces the battle's first experimental (Soul Ripper) but does not use it.

Minute 30: Duncane's attacking force is stopped again by Sorian's. While Duncane's force is 3 to 4 times the size of Sorian's, Duncane's army is 90% T1 while Sorian's is 80%/20% T2/T3. However, Duncane produces the battle's second experimental (MonkeyLord). It races ahead of the rest of Duncane's main battle group and reaches the front lines. There it proceeds to decimate Sorian's front lines before it is also destroyed. However, Duncane's main battle group is far behind and not able to capitalize on this before Sorian's reserve army moves into position.

Minute 35: The land battle is stalemated over the central part of the map in the isthmus. However, Sorian is the only one to produce a navy, which it uses to good effect. The Sorian navy harassed the Duncane army groups and shore bases with cannon bombardments and missile strikes. Both AIs have built airforces (fighters predominantly with a few bombers) but are perfectly content to have them fly combat air patrol over their bases. There are few sorties sent against each other.

Minute 40: Sorian finally produced its first experimentals of the war: 2 Soul Rippers. It sends them both, one followed by the other, to the front line where they both proceeded to decimate Duncane's army (which is finally comprised of T2 and T3 units). However, Sorian then decides to send both Soul Rippers on a cavalry raid deep into Duncane's territory. They both make it to Duncane's main base, only to be destroyed. Meanwhile, Duncane produced the first nuclear missile of the battle and launched it toward's one of Sorian's two main bases, where it's effortlessly neutralized by Duncane's anti-nuclear missile defenses.

Minute 45: Duncane fired 2 more nukes at Sorian, only to see them effectively neutralized again. Meanwhile, a combined army and naval T2 and T3 Sorian battle group destroyed Duncane's T3 battle force (Bricks) at the front lines and broke through for the first time in the battle. With his navy clearing the area of defenses and economic structures, Sorian marches his army straight to Duncane's forward firebase with relatively little opposition (again, thanks to the navy). The score count has now flipped, with Sorian's combined score being 60,000 pts greater than that of Ducane's.

Minute 47: Duncane has just completed a Scathis experimental rapid-fire artillery piece, which it uses to great effect to obliterate Sorian's navy at the front lines. Afterwards, Duncane uses the Scathis to bombard the Sorian main base with shells. However, Sorian let's loose 2 nuclear missiles of his own, with one headed to each of Duncane's two main bases. Both Sorian nukes hit their marks dead center in both Duncane bases, resulting in the decimation of 65% of each main base, as well as killing both of Duncane's ACUs. With his main bases lying in shambles and his economy crippled, Duncane has essentially lost the battle at this point.

Minute 50: Ducane sends its last 2 formations of T3 units (Bricks) into battle, but Sorian's combined land-sea force efficiently destroys them with minimal casualties to his forces. Meanwhile, Sorian's navy clears out the remnants of one of Duncane's main bases. Sorian sends 2 more nukes at Duncane's remaining main base (what's left of it) to deliver the coup de grace.

The battle is over. Sorian wins. Sorian's effective use of a navy made the difference, by bombarding Duncane's positions with little opposition. Duncane didn't make a navy at all.

Match 2:
Game: Vanilla FA (no mods)
Team 1: 2 Duncane AIx Adaptive. Both are Cybran.
Team 2: 2 Sorian AiX. Both are Cybran (Note: Sorian AIx Adaptive is not the same as Duncane's AIx Adaptive, based on their descriptions)
Map: Seton's Clutch (20km x 20km)

Battle Synopsis:

Minute 5: Both sides send out small raiding parties (T1 land units) towards the other. However, Sorian uses a pair of transports to drop a raiding party in the heart of Duncane’s main base #2.

Minute 10: Both sides have built up T1 armies, but only Duncane has organized them into large formations (Sorian has them streaming en masse towards the front lines). Sorian committed air support (T1 gunships and bombers) to support his front line army group, only to watch them driven off by Duncane’s T1 fighters.

Minute 15: The battle at the isthmus a draw, with neither side able to move the front lines. Sorian sends 2 full transports laden with T1 bots near Duncane’s main base #2. The units are dropped off and conduct raiding operations.

Minute 20: Duncane’s T1 army has now pushed forward and thrown Sorian’s T1 forces back. The front line has now moved off the center point of the isthmus and the map. With formation after formation of T1 units headed toward the front, Duncane is now half way between the center isthmus and Sorian’s forward firebase.

Minute 25: Duncane’s army of T1 units finally reaches Sorian’s forward base, only to be repulsed after a sustained attack. However, the attack served its purpose, as it allowed Duncane to establish a forward firebase directly at the center of the isthmus (several land factories, land and air defenses, etc.). With a rebuilt T1 army, Duncane is looking to launch another offensive against Sorian’s positions.

Minute 30: Duncane launched an assault with its T1 army formation directly against Sorian’s forward firebase, only to see it cut to pieces by Sorian’s T2 defense force (Hoplites). Then Sorian launched a counterattack only to see it repulsed by Duncane’s T1/T2 army group. Duncane then launched another offensive with T1 units and the battles first experimental (MonkeyLord), only to see it destroyed by Sorian’s T2/T3 army group. Meanwhile, Duncane launched another experimental (Soul Ripper) and sent it towards Sorian’s main base #2. There it was easily destroyed by the base’s massed anti-air defenses.

Minute 35: In the battle’s first all T2/T3 unit conflict, Duncane’s army destroyed Sorian’s and is marching towards Sorian’s forward firebase. Duncane sends another Soul Ripper experimental to attack Sorian’s main base #2, only to see it destroyed by the base’s air defenses.

Minute 38: Duncane catches Sorian off guard by firing a nuclear missile at Sorian’s main base #2. The nuke hits dead center and obliterates Sorian’s ACU #2, as well as a Soul Ripper experimental that had just been completed. The combined thermonuclear explosions completely wipe Sorian’s main base #2 off the map. At the same time, Duncane has a Megalith experimental make an amphibious assault from the northern shores of Sorian’s territory.

Minute 40: Not to be outdone, Sorian launches his own nuclear missile against Duncane’s main base #2. The nuke hits off-center but still obliterates Duncane’s ACU #2, as well as a couple of MonkeyLord experimentals that were being built. The combined thermonuclear explosion wipes about 95% of Duncane’s main base #2 off the map. Meanwhile, Duncane’s Megalith experimental only conducts a nuisance raid and fails to destroy anything of great importance before it’s destroyed by Sorian’s T2/T3 airforce.

Minute 45: Sorian launches another nuclear missile against Ducane’s main base #1. The nuke hits off-center but still obliterates Duncane’s ACU #1, as well as 2 Megalith experimentals that were just sitting in his base. The combined thermonuclear explosion obliterates about 95% of Duncane’s main base #1. Meanwhile, Sorian’s T2/T3 army has destroyed Duncane’s forward firebase at the center of the isthmus. Sorian was the only one to build a navy, and his T2 cruisers helped soften Duncane’s firebase’s defenses. The battle is essentially over at this point.

Minute 48: Duncane sends his remaining 3 T2/T3 battle formations and 2 experimentals (Megalith, Soul Ripper) into harm’s way. Sorian’s T2/T3 land units destroy most of Ducane’s units until they are destroyed themselves by Duncane’s Megalith. Sorian’s combined T2/T3 air and naval forces ultimately destroy Ducane’s Megalith (his last experimental). With pockets of token resistance remaining, Duncane concedes and withdraws off planet.


Winner: Sorian

Analysis:
Again, Duncane was off to a running start. However, he failed to tech up as quickly as Sorian, who used his tech advantage to hold off Duncane’s larger army. While Duncane fired the first nuke, it was Sorian who used nukes to destroy both of Duncane’s main bases and their ACUs. When that happened, Sorian essentially won the battle.

Video highlights of Match 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWSgoWXYlfg

what i noticed during testing is that the duncane ai makes the sorian ai weaker, since it changes it behaviour. when i play without duncane ai working,the sorian ai comes faar closer to beating my ai, than with the duncane ai, especially on small maps since i am still working on a way to make the commander attack, my work always errors out..

i will update my ai files soon, when i finish the trinity ai and include it in my main .scd file. it will be a water/nuking ai, so when you want to play on water maps this should become a good alternative to the sorian and duncane ai(atm it beats sorian, never tested vs duncane till the end, they stay almost even). // shameless advertisement of my ai

In my 2 v 2 AI test match, the Sorian AIx soundly beat the Duncane AIx Adaptive.

I also found that the size of the map plays a role in determining which AI is better. I believe that Sorian doesn't fare as well against Duncane on smaller (10 km x 10 km) maps because Sorian spends more time tech'ing up, whereas Duncane focuses on better rushing tactics.

Duncane isn't afraid to send its ACU out of its base and engage T1 enemy land forces. That strategy is successful more times than not, although every so often, Duncane's ACU will get caught out in the open and be destroyed early in the game. Sorian prefers do keep his ACU protected within its base.

@LordMang
Impressive results by the sorian ai. Nice match commentary.

In the match i tested 2v2 on sentons was using all uef, with blackops enabled and using the sorian cheating ai adjustment mod. The duncane t2 columns destroyed the forward bases and took over the isthmus and the t3 simply overran the sorian bases (duncane loves juggernauts).

I just realised the latest duncane build uses a cheating adjustment of 1.4 while i assume sorian uses 2 (due to it being default for the cheating adjustment mod). I think further tests should be conducted with the mod (duncane states that his ai is compatible).

I didnt mention this before but i invalidate my tests where one ai goes naval but the other doesnt. Going navy is highly map dependent and Each AI has its own issues with going navy on different maps. I think duncane AIx land goes navy on sentons but not adaptive. Meanwhile ive seen sorian aix water not going navy on stock island maps while duncane aix naval does. I found seraphim glaciers to be a good map to test out naval battles, both naval ais perform at their peak. Since going navy isnt ai strategy (one ai wont go navy just because other did) i dont think it can be used against it.


Good point.



I also noticed sorian acu upgrade earlier than duncane, but duncane uses its acu's more.

@vile,
Thanks. I tried to keep the commentary concise, yet descriptive.

I think at this point, I'm going to stick with the Sorian AIx in cases where I only need 1 AI per team. If I need 2 AIs per team, then I'll use a combination of Sorian AIx and Duncane AIx Adaptive.

While Sorian doesn't use formations or build large army groups as effectively as Duncane, Sorian is superior when it comes to expanding and tech'ing up (as you'd already mentioned). For the vast majority of maps, the ability to expand and tech up is more valuable than creating and using large units in formation.

Sorian also made better use of transports, both for conducting hit and run commando raids, and for moving large numbers of units over great distances.

Finally and probably most important to me, Sorian is more comfortable building 3rd party mod units and using them than Duncane is. As I really want to use the BlackOps family of mods, Sorian is the better AI option.

Interesting discussion going on here. I'm quite curious about how Duncane's AI uses some of the stuff from Sorian's AI. Sorian's last few updates resulted in rather significant improvements in simspeed, but does Duncane's AI enjoy the same improvements if both AI mods are installed and a non-Sorian AI is used?

I've also noticed that Sorian's AI has very little variety in experimentals particularly for UEF and Cybran AIs. For instance, UEF always builds Fatboys, and Cybran always builds Soul Rippers. I'm not sure why this is the case.

I can't really comment intelligently on the simspeed improvements, as I'm not sure what that is. I can say that Duncane's AI is partly based on Sorian's code, as his readme.txt indicates that Duncane's AI needs a Sorian .scd file (which is already included in the Duncane AI zip file).

I've noticed the opposite of your observations of Sorian's AI and Duncane's AI regarding experimentals. I've found in my tests thta Sorian's AI builds the greatest variety of experimentals (vanilla FA and mods) and uses them. Duncane's AI builds only a certain few (e.g. lots of Cybran Soul Rippers) and uses only those. It will build a few other types of experimentals sporadically, but leaves them in the base to idle away.

just though id add to the discussion. this is an overall view the match i just watched

2V2
duncane AIX adaptives
Cybren and aeon
V sorian AIX
UEF and Seraphim
time: 1 hour 15mins
Map: Phrost (its a custom island map found here http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=49885 and both Ai played well on it)
Mods:
All Blackops (Except AR)
4DC with aircraft wreckage mod
UOKC
GAZ UI mod
3603 patch

early game

Duncane AI
Both gained air supremacy
Both built alot of tanks but made little use of them
Cybran got some navel yards and units

Sorian
Both focused on land units and air dropping them in managing to get past most air patrols
little air units made which got taken out fast by enemy air
Both got 1 navel yard but made little use of it



Mid game
all got too tech 2 about the same time

Duncane
Both started to lose air units and made less replacements
made little use of land units still and just keep them in there base with a few being air dropped

Cybran got T2 crusiers and got navel supremacy and cruisers made up for the lose of air units
Aeon did little offensively and focused on defences getting navel yards and units

Sorian
both got some more air but was countered by cruisers
Air drops were becoming less effective to near useless as enemy gained more crusiers
They started using hover units to attack some ships and to replace air drops

Seraphim use land units that couldnt cross water to attack ships close to the shore
UEF focused on attacking aeon with hover units as cybrens attacked the seraphim



Late game

Duncane
Cybren froze and didn't do anything different to mid game but started producing Salems and T2 subs too and massed land units that didn't do anything. never got to t3

Aeon got T2 navel and attacked UEF with it
had decent defences and was first and only to starting building an Experimental and T3 battleships

Sorain
Seraphim lost half there base to cybren attacks. they built more sheilds and mobile T3 arty to attack ships. and used there acu as a distraction as it was upgraded with lambda and regen field

UEF started to produce T3 units and used amphibious one to attack aeon
switched to more defence as they were attack by aeon and a few cybran navy



End game
Cybren and Seraphim were in a stalemate. seraphim lost there ACU but it was in the water and lost none of there base

Aeon got there Czar Finnished and battleships. they keep them in base for a while
started building a GC, an overlord and 2nd czar

UEF increased defences but couldn't rebuild fast enough to compete with aeon

Aeon attacked with the GC after the overlord was built. overlord and czar stayed idle
GC destroyed most of the uef including ACU before dieing
battleship attack only a few targets in range alot of time they were idle
2nd Czar finnished then the first one attacked Uef destroying 3 buildings then crashing in the water
Aeon got missile ships which attacked Seraphim and finished of the UEF

Duncane won but sorian seemed to react better to threats and used there units better

Sorry its now laid out very well

Alright after extensive testing, I have determined that the ai patch is completely broken in FAF, and every ai does the sitting around in the base/no teching thing. Every one that is, except naval, which plays an ace game. In fact it rapes every other ai including sorian water* all the way up and down the street on water heavy maps. Doesn't seem to like building antinukes tho, but techs very nicely, doesn't build a lot of pointless ground units and spams sea very nicely.

Since naval was the whole point of getting it in the first place everything works out for me, I still like duncane better than sorian for ground wars tho, so getting this issue fixed somehow would be nice.

*sorian water seems to play no different from other sorians except it builds 3 naval factories and never uses them.

I was under the impression that FAF had the Sorian AI built in.

Yes it does, and it's working fine. But duncane's AI isn't working for some reason, except naval which is a beast.

FAF probably uses some of the same files that I have changed to fix issues and are overrideing my changes. Sorians tends to have its stuff in its own files as its a seperate AI.

I would take a look, but its been like 3 years and I moved on to supcom2 ages ago
Also have found just playing plain FA with my AI fixes fun enough. FAF is more for multiplayer isnt it?

Its possible you can get my AI fixes to work by moving it up in the order depending on how the FAF mod is done...

Well yes it is largely for multiplayer but the patch mod itself is also very cool with all its balance fixes and new features. And you can still comp stomp, in fact I just used your mod on FAF to coop against the naval ai, it was very fun and challenging.

FAF apparently loads as an .scd mod, but I'm not sure where it inserts itself or how. Load order is determined by filename though isn't it? so renaming 00_ to z_ should guarantee priority yes?

The symptoms are exactly the same as the ones just earlier in this thread, massing of units that never attack, no teching at all. As this was apparently caused by a lack of sorian, the sorian in FAF could maybe have been modified in a way that causes the bug?

[quote="BmB"]
FAF apparently loads as an .scd mod, but I'm not sure where it inserts itself or how. Load order is determined by filename though isn't it? so renaming 00_ to z_ should guarantee priority yes?
quote]

Yes renaming will change the order. Although of its something like 00_FAF.scd and mine 00_AIfix.scd then my fixes should load first.

Alright so apparently it loads programdata/faforver/gamedata first before anything else and then loads the rest of the game normally, or something. What I have dubbed Operation: Read Only is a success. Copying your mod directly into the FAF mod and setting it as read only makes the ai work correctly. Bit cumbersome, as you'd have to do it for every update, veery incompatible, but it works.