I joined a game before I noticed he had replyed.... We may have any ally on the GPG staff!

What I think they should do is turn it into a true *tactical* nuke. Reduce its damage to 10,000 or so (which is still more than enough to kill non-experimental ground units), reduce the cost to be in-line with most tier 2 upgrades, and let the thing hold two missiles at a time. Keep the blast radius the same, it'll be an army-killer, not a precision sniper weapon.

It'd make it an interesting and unique weapon for the UEF, as it'd trade off commander survivability for the ability to wipe out SABs and damage experimentals.

to maintain its usefullness it would need still need enough damage to kill T3 facs, since you can't normally use it on firebases(those have TMD) it is normally(when used) used to wipe out significant portions of an opponents base, although it only works if they don't scout you enough and don't react when they see it incoming, which is not all that rare.

If it only had 10k damage it could still do significant damage to a base, just not enough to make it worht it unless they drasticly reduced the
cost. Also if they are talking about something not working as intended, it is the number of missles it carries. It says it can hold two missles, but it can't. Becuase once you get the nuke you can't use the normal missle(not that I really mind). So you only get one missle. Even though it says two, might be nice to fix something there .

Personally I think it is fine as is.

What I'm saying is to make it useful in a much different niche to what it's used for now. 10K damage is enough to destroy any defensive structures they have an any non experimental units, which means you can just capitalize on it.

If you made the weapon competitive in terms of cost with the HML and other similar upgrades, and the tacnuke somewhere in between a stratnuke or a tac missile's cost (leaning a bit more towards the latter), you'd have a nice defensive anti-army measure.

It doesn't have to be useful in its current niche as long as it has an obvious and practical use.

Yes, but realisticly if they changed it how you are saying its only use would be for blowing up a SAB army. And considering those are going to be weaker with the new patch it would be(in my uninformed and completly unproven) opinion most likly a waste of mass, also as it has been said it needs a major cost benifit since it takes the place of shields. Later game that can mean the difference between thier snipe attack working and failing.

With only 10k damage it would only good against harbs and titans. (since Loyalists have anti tac). Not against bases or firebases=ending a stalemate. In its current use it can easily end a stalemate against someone not aware of it, otherwise it is just an anti army nuke. Besides it is soo slow they could just stop, eat a cake, drink some tea, take a nap, then walk slowly away from where it is heading and it will miss them by a mile. It's target needs to be stationary, or not moving very much, because of its ptitiful speed, or lack thereof.

No, its "only" use would be utterly wiping out the escorts of all experimental units. The only ground based unit with tactical missile defense is the Loyalist, as you have said, and for anyone else if you drop one in their midst you have just utterly removed their escorting units. All Experimentals are hilariously vulnerable while unescorted.

As I said, make it cheap. 10k with a 1 km blast radius isn't terribly high, so let's say it costs as much as four tac missiles but the thing builds them twice as fast as tac missile launchers. You wouldn't be able to spam them, but they'd be a valid threat.

(the other thing I said is halve the cost of the backpack to render it competitive with the other 'big' unique weapon upgrade, the Cybran HML)

You can rebalance the mass and energy costs as you want. But I would think that having the ability to greatly threaten any UEF or Aeon army with near-total annihilation (because even a Harb shielded by a MSG wouldn't survive) would be quite useful compared to a bunch of shield points in some situations.

If you want to, add a speed buff or something to it to make it more "tactically useful". In essence I want the "miniature nuclear weapon" launcher I was promised at the start :p

I am happy with the change, specifically because it flies too high for UEF and Cybran TMDs except those in vicinityof point of impact. That bothered me. I have no idea what happens when it hits Aeon TMD bubble. That could be a nasty one too.

I agree it should be changed to be less expensive or something though.

As it has been said before, when Billy hit a Aeon TMD "bubble" it flew straight up. End of story. And as for the OMG only the TMD at the spot kill it!!!1!!11! It is not like anyone complains that SMDs don't shoot down nukes flying over head. If they did shoot it down along the way it would be worse than useless. And Buzzkills still are not 100% for along the way. I don't like the change. At all.

I thought it disappeared when it hit one of the bubbles. Wasn't it the Loyalist redirect that made it go straight up?

TMDs will intercept tactical missiles that are flying overhead, even if their target is way outside of the TMD radius.

I get that on WD all the time. I want to hit his MEX way in the back, but there's a TMD in the way. My missile won't make it past the TMD position.


I'm also not convinced that TMD have any sort of "vertical range limit". It's actually a problem with the Buzzkill, I think -- you know how MML missiles go wild when their intended target dies? Sometimes they end up flying into like low earth orbit over your Buzzkill and the Buzzkill will waste a whole lot of time trying to shoot down this missile that's miles overhead.

I'm pretty sure the Cybran one just zaps it. It's like instead of a "sphere of range" it's a "cylinder of range".



I have also, for sure, had Billy get intercepted by TMD that happened to be in between my ACU and my target, though I forget what faction it was that I was fighting. It would be worth a test, but I suspect all 3 factions TMD will intercept Billy (or in the case of the Buzzkill, try to) even if Billy is just passing by overhead on the way to somewhere else.

That's why I say this is actually a good change that makes Billy more useful.

I think devs ment billy to be more of a last resort defensive weapon rather than a IWIN-button. This means yes you can use it to assault bases, but with this change it won't be as effective as before. They probably intended it for protection against ground assaults. Like the other commanders fighting skills. They are not meant for total destruction of the enemy and instead meant for aggressive defense.

And i can't see what's wrong with the UEF ACU, hell it can have both RAS and shield/nuke. Cybran acu almost never uses it's RAS upgrade since we can't get stealth then. And while the stealth is awsome, it will get nerfed in the patch due to T3 spyplanes having omnisensor. Noone cries about that. What if Cybran T3 bomber gets an ability that reduce the effectiveness of shields. Oh god what an outcry that would create.

Also, you have a mobile nuke that noone knows about until the missile fires. Much like the T3 strategic missile subs. Many people don't bother with nukedefense unless they see their enemy building a nuke. Use the nuke mainly as defense or, if your enemy doesn't build nukedef, as offense. Finally, nukedef can't be created on water in the next patch. Oh look you have an awsome weapon for killing naval armies! Which is now unstoppable. (cruisers and battleships can take out tactical missiles but not strategic ones.)


I think this change is more that motivated and will change the usage of the ACU nuke a little, but it will not make it useless as so many are saying. Yes it was unique before, but it still is. Just in a different way.

The animated-sig-mania made me write this post, sorry.

Supreme Commander isn't supposed to be ultimate realism.

As they said, it's no fun if you have fighters zipping around at Mach 5 and scoring kills on other fighters from 200 kilometers away as a routine point.

I would prefer having a couple of cruiser guns and some extra AAA on a battleship, but at this point, I'm not sure if it'd be easy or economical to add them on.

They do need some sort of closer in defense against smaller ships, that is true.

On another note, I think it'd be cool if battleship PD for the UEF fired on and attempted to destroy all types of weaponsfire, not just tac missiles. Of course, tac missiles would get high priority, but...

as a Cybran player..... i have to admit... that i voted..for him... sorry lovely nation, i'm no traitor... but i like Billy

Wow. I normally agree with you, but on this I absolutly don't. As funkykong pointed you can cover your base with TMD for a fraction of Billy's cost. TMDs on the way toward the target can take it out, while you arn't warned of the launch, you can see the nuke symbol and easily build TMD in time.

It is not "an I win" button. A couple of TMD can knock it out, heck even one, not even at the place but just along the way can. It can't be "a last resort weapon" it costs heaps. More than a stonager. As for saying most people don't build SMD unless they see someone building a nuke, well I used to not build SMDs until I saw a nuke too, until I got nuked from a place I hadn't scouted, now I always do. It is really stupid not too. Same for TMD vs a UEF player, besides IMO you should have TMD anyway. It's not like you can't see the opponent doing the upgrade if you scout, or at the very least you should notice the effects. If it is changed to be a normal strat nuke(particulerly with the warning) it will be useless.

And it CAN'T have both shield and nuke. They take the same spot. Do at least the most basic of research, or look at some of the other posts in this very thread, and you would know that is wrong.

as for the Cybran T3 bomber aurgument, it is fine now IMO. If you are going to compare something, don't compare T3 bombers-the UEF Ambassodor sucks. The Revenent is the best vs SABs because of the huge splash. I would rate it very near the Shocker. It doesn't "need something to derease shields effectiveness" it is good enough already.


And as for the "nuke the battleships". I could do that just fine with a stonager, or if you want no warning, a nuke sub. WHAT is the benifit of having something that does the same exact thing? None. Its why people complain about SABs, they take the same exact spot as T2 tanks. Billy would take the exact same spot as the stonager, except the stonager would be better.


As it has been pointed out, if Billy is changed to be a "normal nuke" it will be worthless. You simply can't argue that it won't be. Since it takes the same spot as the shields.

And as for being useful now in a different way...It will be useless. I play UEF. You play Cybran I am guessing so you probably don't care. It was a niche role before, now it won't be a niche role it will be a useless way to have a nuke on your comm instead of shields, plus more expensive.

For comparision(funky already said it, but since you can't seem to read) For Billy's current cost you can have a Fully combat upgraded Cybran ACU, HML Stealth/cloak make two MLs and have mass left over. If it is changed to be a normal nuke it would be useless. I wouldn't ever use it, plain and simple it would cost too much and be too risky to be effective.

P.S. The animated sigs will not go away until Billy is fixed hehehe

The replay vault.

Having used Billy in Sandbox...it takes ten years for it to move ten feet. You could have a TMD up in the spot it's headed for before it actually hit something, thus taking it out.

Being Cybran, and having never used the Billy competitively, I would not want to see Billy nerfed. It's one of the only sneak tactics UEF has, and anyone who builds TMD is immune to it, PLUS it has the giant nuke icon on the minimap that gives it away. It does not always work, since it is a Tactical missile, and it's not like it's unstoppable at all. TMD are CHEAP. Nuke Defenses + antinuke missiles are not.

Save Billy. This topic will not rest until it is kept Tactical!

In fact that's not true; in my tests the UEF Buzzkill TMD was the only one that could reach it at maximum altitude during it's flight overhead. The Cybran one can't reach it at the very top, but any time during the approach to target it will destroy it in a few brief seconds.

http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic. ... 6484#66484

The Aeon Volcano TMD has a tendency to redirect the missile either into one of it's orbs (making it vanish) or straight upward out into space. The only problem here is that you can't put that TMD under a shield, or if you do, you must turn the shield off when you see the nuke coming to prevent it from being redirected that way.

They do have a vertical range limit:



That's a Zapper unable to catch Billy at the very peak of it's flight.



So it's more useful to have Billy become a more expensive, single-shot strategic missile? Why I would upgrade to that when I could get a Stonager instead, for much cheaper energy cost, which can hold more missiles, and when doing so denies my ACU of shields, a hugely important defensive upgrade in any assassination game?

Aye, let the devs know that Billy is a tactical missile, not a stragetic missile.

maybe someone could make a mod to fix the "fix"

And the reason for taking this more expensive upgrade when you could build a Stonager instead and give your ACU shields is?



The ACU get's a backpack missile launcher when he upgrades to it; it can be seen via scouting, just like a Stonager, albeit somewhat more subtle. Does that justify it being the second most expensive upgrade in the game, if they change it to a strategic missile? I don't believe so.



I already have that "awesome weapon"; it's called a Stonager, and it holds 5 missiles instead of 1.

I have to agree, I really don't see the logic or reason for "fixing" this to be a strategic missile. It makes next to no sense assuming it stays just as expensive to build and functions like a normal strat missiles. What's the point really?

Mobility? "Yes I will leave my well defended base to take my unshielded commander out to some spot and have him fire a single nuclear missile!".

That's just stupid, the only possible "benefit" to being mobile is the ability to launch it from underwater.......in which case I'd rather just build the nuke sub and be able to rapid fire missiles (somewhat) and at least have a chance of getting through a missile defense.

As it stands now this has become a pointless upgrade, along the same lines as several other commander upgrades:

-Aeon commander's chrono dampener
-UEF commander's repair upgrade
-Cybran SCU AA missile launcher (rarely works, if it fired reliably it'd be great)
-All commanders teleport upgrade (not the Aeon SCU that one is good, the upgrade for the commanders is generally useless)

At the moment upgrading to the UEF commander's tactical missile backpack could be helpful in the earlier parts of some games, especially on smaller maps, but in the end I can't see why I'd ever bother to get the nuke launcher upgrade again.

Edit: To whoever was talking about nuking fleets, well......that can already be done seeing as the SMD has been "bugged" since day 1 and has never been able to fire when built on water. Sure you can build it and build up missiles but it won't fire if a nuke is coming down in its radius of protection.

I wholeheartedly agree with this thread.

Signed ma5h.

I agree with GPG that a nuke that issues no warning and is immune to antinuke confuses players that do not know about billy I myself would think its a bug, cheat or worse

But the solution? dont like it - looks like a quick shot.
Why not do a "tactical missile launch detechted" - voice? (not when launched, but when the missile is in the targets LOS for the first time). This would keep the sneaky element, and players would know what happens and MAYBE think: "tactical? ah, thats the T2 defense building".

Just because players are ignorant of somthing does not make it unfair.
It is their own fault for not knowing, and It only takes 1 time for them to learn what it is ...

I agree; my post about Billy is one of the most viewed threads behind the Comprehensive Guide to Resources; I made a point of explaining it to the other players whenever I used it, and while the initial reaction was usually "wtf?" afterwards it was "I see now."